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Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

theguardian.com

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Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#131

Post by torstenvl »

HatchedLake721 wrote: post #35
wesleywt wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

Your position is that "most of the world," i.e., more than half of its 7.75 billion people, disapprove of Dobbs?

How did you come to that figure? There's no possible way that's true unless you simply decide that the opinions of non-white people don't count.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/national-international/map-a...

And even that map overstates the situation, since, e.g., China's rule is essentially identical to Dobbs: individual provinces have the power to regulate.

https://www.safeabortionwomensright.org/news/china-jiangxi-p...

It's also obviously false that the U.S. has the world view that "detention without trial and major human right abuses" are acceptable. And it's dishonest to compare waging an illegal war with being gay - I mean, seriously, are you saying gay people are literal terrorists? There's no difference in your mind between two men honeymooning on the Persian Gulf and KSM?

Seriously. C'mon man.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#132

Post by Strom »

frereubu wrote: post #125
Strom wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mohammed bin Salman is from Saudi Arabia, this article is about the United Arab Emirates, or well the Amazon-related part anyway. Also, while we're on the topic of moral dilemmas, I would like to add some spice by pointing out that buying almost anything from the supermarket funds someone like Mohammed bin Salman, because their oil was used in the production and transportation of the product or its components.

Saudi Arabia was mentioned in the article too. I picked him as he and his actions are more well-known. Also, I don't think you're adding "spice". Just because that's the state of the world currently, doesn't mean that can't change. I find a lot of these comments frustrating as they seem to coming from a really weak place of "change is too hard". Edit: My reference to "change" here is about transitioning from fossil f…

It's not about change being hard, it's about doing a reality check on moral highground. You chose to talk about working for a company that cooperates with MBS, and I wanted to point out that it is only a tiny fraction of activities that support MBS.

Choosing an MBS-free activity is all fine and good for personal moral growth. However, in general, I've observed a lot of gloating about moral highground once someone does a few of these choices. Without realizing that the people they're trying to describe as morally corrupt might actually be less corrupt just because they shop less.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#133

Post by frereubu »

ehhthing wrote: post #123
londons_explore wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By not providing your services to the people of these countries, you are making their quality of life worse. See heavily sanctioned countries like North Korea and Iran for examples of quite how much worse life is for those citizens. "I don't want to support Mohammed bin Salman" needs to be traded off against "I don't want to make 34 million people have worse lives". In my view, in nearly every case, the latter effect…

As a former Chinese citizen, I've always been a bit confused why people get mad at companies operating in the country, censored. At least in my experience, a censored version of a foreign website is always much better than the stuff developed locally, and there are some political reasons for this I won't go into. In my opinion, it's pure virtue signalling to argue that "a company compromising morals in a different co…

I take your point - elsewhere I've said that I come from a place of pragmatism, not ideology. My question about this is that your example search engines, where this article is about Amazon selling products. I think the trade-offs are subtly different.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#134

Post by naniwaduni »

djohnston wrote: post #99
RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #54

Do people agree that corporations should respect the customs and values of the local people when operating their business there? If yes, then Amazon is not "bowing", and it is The Guardian who is playing word games here. If not, then it would seem to imply that we are OK with western powers using their capital (instead of gunboats) to impose their ideology on other cultures in the world. Now, one may argue that the c…

My feeling is that if you're going out of your way to promote an ideology/cultural value domestically (Happy Pride Month!, flags everywhere, etc), then yes you need to stick to your guns and not bow to the opposite influence. If you're strictly in the business of making money, then by all means conduct your business but stfu about it.

The trick is that they're not promoting an ideology/cultural value domestically; they're bowing to local influence everywhere, including domestically.

i.e. we should not take corporate Pride as sincere support, but as an indicator of the zeitgeist.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#135

Post by andsoitis »

tharne wrote: post #89
sweetheart wrote: post #4

Is there any argument here in Amazon’s defense? Or is my initial disgust at Amazon truly the appropriate response. I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves?

> I cannot fathom being the person at Amazon who makes that call. Do they sleep well at night? Do they feel good about themselves? I'm sure they sleep fine. It's not the role of a retailer to promote a particular political agenda. If we all only transacted with people we agreed with, we wouldn't have a society.

> It's not the role of a retailer to promote a particular political agenda.

Standing up to an authority that declares some lives less valuable than others (e.g. gays, women, having slaves) is maybe a political agenda but it is moreso a moral position, and that is the thing to emphasize.

The trouble is, ultimately people tend to not care enough to stick their necks out (lose money, lose a job) to stand up for what's right, unless it affects them very directly. And it is rational to not forego your own wellfare for the sake of some other group, I just wish the circle of empathy people have were larger.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#136

Post by frereubu »

Strom wrote: post #132
frereubu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saudi Arabia was mentioned in the article too. I picked him as he and his actions are more well-known. Also, I don't think you're adding "spice". Just because that's the state of the world currently, doesn't mean that can't change. I find a lot of these comments frustrating as they seem to coming from a really weak place of "change is too hard". Edit: My reference to "change" here is about transitioning from fossil f…

It's not about change being hard, it's about doing a reality check on moral highground. You chose to talk about working for a company that cooperates with MBS, and I wanted to point out that it is only a tiny fraction of activities that support MBS. Choosing an MBS-free activity is all fine and good for personal moral growth. However, in general, I've observed a lot of gloating about moral highground once someone doe…

I'm a pragmatist, not an ideologue, and my intention was not to grandstand. I find people who think change happens overnight just as frustrating.

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#137

Post by andsoitis »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #43
sgift wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Also: Suffragettes and abolition of slavery were both called crazy in their time.

In their time triple distilled water containing radium was sold as an energy drink, they thought bathing was unhealthy, and they ate mercury. I will go out on a limb and say we can judge things a bit better now. Sure, right now we accept plastic and plasticisers everywhere around us. Which is crazy. And quite probably contributes to the great hormonal disruption and the trans craze.

> Sure, right now we accept plastic and plasticisers everywhere around us. Which is crazy. And quite probably contributes to the great hormonal disruption and the trans craze.

Interesting intuition. Do you know of any research suggesting a causal link between plastics and more trans visibility?

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#138

Post by djohnston »

naniwaduni wrote: post #134
djohnston wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My feeling is that if you're going out of your way to promote an ideology/cultural value domestically (Happy Pride Month!, flags everywhere, etc), then yes you need to stick to your guns and not bow to the opposite influence. If you're strictly in the business of making money, then by all means conduct your business but stfu about it.

The trick is that they're not promoting an ideology/cultural value domestically; they're bowing to local influence everywhere , including domestically. i.e. we should not take corporate Pride as sincere support , but as an indicator of the zeitgeist.

Agreed, but then it's just valueless noise and I wish they'd stfu about it XD

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#139

Post by naniwaduni »

hef19898 wrote: post #79
RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #54

Do people agree that corporations should respect the customs and values of the local people when operating their business there? If yes, then Amazon is not "bowing", and it is The Guardian who is playing word games here. If not, then it would seem to imply that we are OK with western powers using their capital (instead of gunboats) to impose their ideology on other cultures in the world. Now, one may argue that the c…

Personally, I think corporations have to respect the laws in all the markets they are operating in, no exceptions. If those laws are contradictory, well international corps are pretty good in using any loop holes, so they gonna figure it out. And if laws in some markets contradict basic values of a company, well, you can always not operate in said market. I'd love if companies would do that. That companies don't is a…

"circumvent" makes it sound like they're not taking the straight-line path and ignoring western democratic values and getting away with it

Re: Amazon bows to UAE pressure to restrict LGBT search results

#140

Post by JackFr »

djohnston wrote: post #99
RyEgswuCsn wrote: post #54

Do people agree that corporations should respect the customs and values of the local people when operating their business there? If yes, then Amazon is not "bowing", and it is The Guardian who is playing word games here. If not, then it would seem to imply that we are OK with western powers using their capital (instead of gunboats) to impose their ideology on other cultures in the world. Now, one may argue that the c…

My feeling is that if you're going out of your way to promote an ideology/cultural value domestically (Happy Pride Month!, flags everywhere, etc), then yes you need to stick to your guns and not bow to the opposite influence. If you're strictly in the business of making money, then by all means conduct your business but stfu about it.

> if you're going out of your way to promote an ideology/cultural value domestically (Happy Pride Month!, flags everywhere, etc)

A cynic might even suspect the value signal is more about marketing than deeply held belief.

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