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Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

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Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#131

Post by shard »

verisimi wrote: post #95
taylodl wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter got an internship at a research lab this summer - where they have thousands and thousands of research mice and they kill several mice every day. She said CO2 works on adults and therefore that's what they use. But CO2 doesn't work on baby mice and is considered inhumane. Instead they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. The labs are continually…

> they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. Yes, that sounds fine. Much more humane. Carry on. As long as the ethics committee OKs it.

It sounds like they had put some thought into which methods cause the least suffering. It doesn't sound like they were trying to skirt the edge of what the ethics committee would allow, which is how I read your comment. Please let me know if I have misinterpreted.

As to possible alternative methods, those include freezing, which could be quite prolonged and painful, and blunt force trauma, which could be difficult/ambiguous to perform correctly and confirm correctness every time.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#132

Post by shanusmagnus »

pessimizer wrote: post #130
h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

> I had to adopt her and her baby after seeing that. They were never exceptional as pet mice but I still feel good about saving those two. Weird sentiment. It's like when South American paramilitaries would exterminate entire villages, but adopt one of the children. Does that make it easier to go back to killing them, or harder? edit: I could see it both ways; harder obviously, because you enjoy your pet and you see…

Alternate take: sometimes you perform whatever small act of grace that you can manage in this world, even if it's futile or inconsistent with your other actions.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#133

Post by shanusmagnus »

protonbob wrote: post #119
badRNG wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same boat. I'm not a vegan, and I try my absolute best to avoid thinking about what we put animals through. It certainly sits in a specific category of intrusive thoughts. The only real analog to this in my mind is being aware of my own mortality; I just avoid that thought and shove it out of my mind. Occasionally my comparatively relaxed life is harshly interrupted by an awareness of these facts and I'm ripped back…

I am not a vegan but I think it would be useful for every meat eater to humanely kill and prepare an animal to eat at least once in their life. Having done so, I think I learned a lot about death and whether or not I was willing to eat an animal after preparing a few myself. I also think it is important to be aware of our own mortality and to think about it a healthy amount. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori

I've thought about the mortality angle quite a bit, for the reasons you say, and can see how that would be useful -- even something as simple as fishing can force you to confront some realities about life and death and how we relate to the world. Did your behavior change after your experience?

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#134

Post by Konohamaru »

h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Why would you agree to do such a job?

"Because it's my job!" <- if someone paid you an obscene sum of money to bonk random people over the head with a baseball bat, would you take it? No? Then what's the justification for torturing mice?

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#135

Post by waserwill »

shanusmagnus wrote: post #100
h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for e…

I've seen similar things. Besides many experiments not being remotely worth the harm they cause (poor design, niche topics without applications, dead end checking-all-the-boxes, etc.), they leave a mark on the people who conduct them. Some leave that sort of research out of distaste or disgust, and some become callous. It struck me that it inculcates an inhumane indifference to suffering. And numb scientists. It ultimately damages both the people and the science. Yet incentives (monetary, career progression) can push people past boundaries, and with time, erase them.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#136

Post by shard »

dalbasal wrote: post #77
NineStarPoint wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s interesting to me at least that the group’s population crashed completely to zero and not to just a low number that then began climbing again. This is undoubtably a consequence of mice not being able to escape from the chaos due to the small size of the territory, but I do wonder what the minimum viable size would be to allow for a full boom-bust-boom cycle to occur.

I don't think it's that surprising, especially as an occasional result. Consider that surviving severe overpopulation is trauma. Survivors are physically and/or psychologically sick. They're not good breeders and at this point. Happens frequently in aquariums. Guppies breed like guppies. Overpopulate, then die back. The proximate causes can be varied. Maybe there's an ammonia spike, oxygen deficiency or other consequ…

> Consider that surviving severe overpopulation is trauma

Recently there was an article posted on HN about how trauma experienced by parents are passed down to children through (a term that means it's related to activation of genes, I believe, but not DNA itself... I thought it was metagenomics but upon looking at the definition I don't think that's it). Perhaps the trauma of overpopulation activated or deactivated some genes which in turn reduced reproduction rate in offspring.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#137

Post by shanusmagnus »

waserwill wrote: post #135
shanusmagnus wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once in grad school I went to a talk where another grad student was presenting on his fear research with mice. Many powerpoint details unfold of the hell he and his advisor had contrived to make the mice chronically afraid, and to be able to quantify the fear induced and its effects. I learned that when mice get scared enough they shit excessively. In the presentation of results he lingers on a graph, and says, for e…

I've seen similar things. Besides many experiments not being remotely worth the harm they cause (poor design, niche topics without applications, dead end checking-all-the-boxes, etc.), they leave a mark on the people who conduct them. Some leave that sort of research out of distaste or disgust, and some become callous. It struck me that it inculcates an inhumane indifference to suffering. And numb scientists. It ulti…

I almost said something similar, the old Nietzsche quote about how if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back. I didn't want to be even more dramatic, but I think you are exactly right. There's a cost to such things, and the externalities run deep and wide. All you can do is be very deliberate that the trade is worthwhile.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#138

Post by shard »

wongarsu wrote: post #62
throwaway4aday wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We seem to vary our reproduction rate based on the life expectancy of our offspring I don't think the life expectancy of the offspring is the only factor. Birth control certainly contributes, education is known to as well, wealth, working status and legal equality of women, and now there seems to be a whole new set of influences on the younger generations. It also doesn't seem to be a finely tuned feedback system,…

You are right that there are certainly countless factors, and it's a messy system. You can clearly see economic troubles suppressing birth numbers, or the introduction of the pill that drove most Western societies to a birth rate below the replacement level. You can also see clear differences caused by politics/ideological systems. But the coupling between birth rate and death rate seems the strongest overall predict…

I always thought effects such as environmental chemical pollution (estrogen analogs), overreliance on nighttime lighting / artificial temperature regulation and dietary issues leading to obesity (both previous items reducing fertility), and increasing cost of raising children (leading to higher investment in fewer children) are some of the main factors leading to decreases in birth rate in developed nations.

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#139

Post by verisimi »

shard wrote: post #131
verisimi wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they use scissors and cut off the baby mice's heads. It's to be done swiftly so it's like a guillotine. Yes, that sounds fine. Much more humane. Carry on. As long as the ethics committee OKs it.

It sounds like they had put some thought into which methods cause the least suffering. It doesn't sound like they were trying to skirt the edge of what the ethics committee would allow, which is how I read your comment. Please let me know if I have misinterpreted. As to possible alternative methods, those include freezing, which could be quite prolonged and painful, and blunt force trauma, which could be difficult/am…

Your assumption is that the mice must die.

Given that its the case, you then wonder about the most effective means of killing them.

But, pushing back on your assumption, what value can there possibly be in killing baby mice?

Re: Mouse Heaven or Mouse Hell?

#140

Post by shard »

Konohamaru wrote: post #134
h2odragon wrote: post #49

One of the worst jobs i ever had, occasionally required us to drown some mice. Excess population / euthanized "feeders" for pet snakes. The method was to put several mice into a small wire cage, and then submerge the cage in water. Usually I filled a bucket with hot water, beforehand, and made this operation fast as possible. Dunk and done. One day I came across a cow orker attempting to do this job (I had been busy…

Why would you agree to do such a job? "Because it's my job!" <- if someone paid you an obscene sum of money to bonk random people over the head with a baseball bat, would you take it? No? Then what's the justification for torturing mice?

I hate to use this phrase, but I think this is what the kids are calling "dripping with privilege" these days.
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