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Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

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Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#131

Post by carapace »

forum_ghost wrote: post #130
carapace wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you create an “open and censorship resistant system” that blocks only a specific category of people? The current rise of ubiquitous surveillance is already creating a censorship-resistant system. Whether it's open or not is a matter of policy, rather than technology. > First we start with scammers and crooks, then fast forward a little, and suddenly now we are doing civil forfeitures? That's a really good po…

So you are proposing we just mail some camcorders to North Korea to end their tyranny?

You don't seem to be arguing in good faith.

FWIW, N. Korea is my go-to example for how NOT to organize a society. I have no idea what to do about them, and I'm grateful that it's not my problem.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#132

Post by forum_ghost »

carapace wrote: post #131
forum_ghost wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are proposing we just mail some camcorders to North Korea to end their tyranny?

You don't seem to be arguing in good faith. FWIW, N. Korea is my go-to example for how NOT to organize a society. I have no idea what to do about them, and I'm grateful that it's not my problem.

> Whether it's open or not is a matter of policy

If you have to rely on some policy - it’s not censorship free.

You propose we literally rely on a trusted third party to adjudicate things.

AKA a literal censor? To make things censor free?

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#133

Post by forum_ghost »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #85
Grimburger wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't spam email energy usage come in close to 50TWh? That's from memory. Only decent link I can find on this is from 13 years ago with 33TWh: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...

And everyone agrees it's waste of time and energy, except actual scammers - spammers, right?

An open and permission-less global monetary network that does not exclude anyone at all, is about as valuable to you as malformed viagra emails?

4 billion people today live under less than ideal circumstances.

Spending a fraction of a percent of global electricity is absolutely worth it. It provides those 4 billion people with access to the financial services that they would otherwise never get.

Nigeria alone has 34+ million users. Just one country.

What, they are all scammers to you?

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#134

Post by Nursie »

macinjosh wrote: post #68
Nursie wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US Problem identified.

Hateful much? Sorry I was born here and not the super awesome perfect place you are from.

Not in the slightest. The US is a fine country. But it lags behind in banking and payments.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#135

Post by Nursie »

hardmoney99 wrote: post #129
Nursie wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal is better money. Except when someone points out it's terrible at that, its goal magically becomes something else. Which it's probably terrible at, and then the goal shifts again.

You're confusing money with currency. Bitcoin is excellent money, the best there is. Currency? not so much due to current fluctuations. With adoption that will subside, so will the yields, and it may start behaving more like currency (or not). It's quite possible it becomes money but not currency with something like a stable coin taking place of currency. That doesn't mean that it won't try or won't make it. When you…

> You're confusing money with currency.

No, you're using nonsense distinctions that come from the 'Austrian school', that you think make you smart and you believe gives you an understanding of economics denied to most people, even those who study economics to a high level and make careers in that space. Unfortunately it's a patchwork of old and poor ideas that don't really hold up.

By the way I love the condescending addendum, sure, the only reason that anyone could possibly be negative about Bitcoin is that they haven't learned enough about it. LOL.

> Vote with your conviction.

Any move into the manipulated casino that is cryptocurrency is a bad move.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#136

Post by Nursie »

jkepler wrote: post #115
Nursie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is the solution It's the solution to nothing. Nothing. This is pretty hilarious though, Bitcoin is exactly the same as a variety of other cryptocurrencies, which are carbon copies of it. Identical. But right on cue here come the bitcoin maximalists to explain that theirs is special. Here's the only reason it's special - brand recognition. That's it. That's what you have over the various forks and clones. Fi…

Actually, what you call brand recognition could be monetary adoption, as every nongovernmental money such as gold or silver had widespread adoption on their merits. Bitcoin solved the Byzantine generals' problem in adversarial network contexts, by its innovative deployment of proof-of-work. Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights, and property rights are a fundamental building block for human…

> Bitcoin solved ...

Its inventors came up with a solution to it, sure, and that is innovative. It's inelegant, it's massively wasteful, but as a technical curiosity it's certainly interesting.

> Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights

Fucking LOL. You say that as if it tapped into the laws of physics themselves, when actually a quantum computer could cause havoc here. It's using mathematics to achieve consensus, not writing data into the fabric of the universe, and as with all of your other points, it's just first mover advantage again. All of the other cryptocurrencies do the same.

> Bitcoin provides a decentralized trustless source of truth

No, it provides consensus, not truth.

> Bitcoin is a strong base layer

Exactly the same as its clones, forks and children.

> and none of the other cryptos do that because they're not nearly as widely adopted.

They do exactly the same. Adoption is a matter of degree, not absolute.

> Bitcoin mining is also incentivising and paying for the production of clean renewable energy

No, no it isn't. Bitcoin mining is filthy and getting worse.

We don't need more incentives for green energy, the world is already full of those. Bitcoin mining, on the other hand, uses dirty coal in Kazakhstan.

> No other crypto is doing those things.

EVERY other cryptocurrency is doing EXACTLY those same things. It's all just brand recognition.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#137

Post by forum_ghost »

peterlk wrote: post #51
potatototoo99 wrote: post #12

I usually brush aside these doomsday articles about crypto, but the linked article is really depressing: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-04-25/sam-bankm... I remember nicer days when crypto had some value, and yes exchanges were already shady and did a lot of washing, but there was clearly a closer approximation to market sentiment and real world use cases. Nowadays everything seems to be revolve around…

A family member started getting pretty deep in the crypto game, and went to one crypto conference. Afterwards, we hung out and he was really deflated. He just said, "none of these people understand what's going on. I asked what would happen when the underlying asset values went down, and they tied themselves in knots trying to unravel their own cleverness". Crypto is interesting to me in the way that algotrading is i…

> I asked what would happen when the underlying asset values went down

There are no underlying assets.

You are literally conflating one tokenomic example to the entire space.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#138

Post by Nursie »

forum_ghost wrote: post #133
KptMarchewa wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And everyone agrees it's waste of time and energy, except actual scammers - spammers, right?

An open and permission-less global monetary network that does not exclude anyone at all, is about as valuable to you as malformed viagra emails? 4 billion people today live under less than ideal circumstances. Spending a fraction of a percent of global electricity is absolutely worth it. It provides those 4 billion people with access to the financial services that they would otherwise never get. Nigeria alone has 34+…

> It provides those 4 billion people with access to the financial services that they would otherwise never get.

It demonstrably does not, and with its transaction rate limitations, it cannot.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#139

Post by hardmoney99 »

Nursie wrote: post #135
hardmoney99 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're confusing money with currency. Bitcoin is excellent money, the best there is. Currency? not so much due to current fluctuations. With adoption that will subside, so will the yields, and it may start behaving more like currency (or not). It's quite possible it becomes money but not currency with something like a stable coin taking place of currency. That doesn't mean that it won't try or won't make it. When you…

> You're confusing money with currency. No, you're using nonsense distinctions that come from the 'Austrian school', that you think make you smart and you believe gives you an understanding of economics denied to most people, even those who study economics to a high level and make careers in that space. Unfortunately it's a patchwork of old and poor ideas that don't really hold up. By the way I love the condescending…

> No, you're using nonsense distinctions that come from the 'Austrian school', Do you have an actual rebuttal to anything I've said or will you resort to emotional and ideological attachment to what others have decided for you?

>By the way I love the condescending addendum, sure, the only reason that anyone could possibly be negative about Bitcoin is that they haven't learned enough about it. LOL.

Another reason people might view Bitcoin negatively is because they let others think for them (reaching flawed, uneducated conclusions, passed down onto you).

Or conflict of interest. Financial privilege. Not biting the hand that feeds you. Fitting in with your peers who have the same herd mentality. Take your pick.

Re: Bitcoin Is a Hideous Monstrosity Made Out of Computers and Greed

#140

Post by Nursie »

forum_ghost wrote: post #124
tossl568 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not contesting it no. And I'm saying it's a perfectly valid use of energy. It will use even more energy in future. And it's worth it. Energy use doesn't need defending and isn't a bad thing. Energy secures the financial network, it's doing that work, even if the network isn't useful to you. Disincentivising fossil fuel use for every purpose needs to happen, not just Bitcoin.

It’s very disturbing to read comments on an allegedly techie forum that insist the expansion of energy capacity is somehow bad. What, we will be the first spacefaring, Kardashev Type 2 civilization that is powered solely by windmills? Why is energy demonized so much? There will be 100x, 1000x more energy use in the future in the entire economy. You are worried some tiny fraction of a percent is an issue?

> You are worried some tiny fraction of a percent is an issue?

YES.

Adding a whole new country to the map right now, when we don't have enough clean energy to go around, and we are killing our environment with emissions from energy generation, is a BAD idea.

Far from helping to increase demand for clean energy, as is the meme, cryptocurrency mining is incentivising the return of fossil fuel power plants to service (as has happened in the US and other places) and using vast amounts of coal power in places like Kazakhstan. It's the opposite of what we should be doing, which is reducing our power footprint until we have a handle on things.

> There will be 100x, 1000x more energy use in the future in the entire economy.

Maybe, but if that was using our current mix of tech, we'd cook ourselves in the process.

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