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V Language Review

mawfig.github.io

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Re: V Language Review

#131

Post by crazywulf »

pxeger1 wrote: post #129
crazywulf wrote: post #112

I do not understand the hatred, reminds me of the last article of this kind. This language is in alpha. I've been in the Discord community since 2020 and no one would think of recommending the language for production use because it's WIP. Sure the goals are high and a lot of things don't work yet or are shaky but that's the way it is ATM. The wording of the article is simply not appropriate for the fact that the lang…

I don't think this article contains any hatred. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an unfinished language - take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31775216 (2 days ago) for an example. This article criticises V for presenting itself as a usable language , when it definitely isn't, with all these features which don't work.

I don't think it is fair to criticize the language like that without having "0.2 ALPHA" in the title of the ycombinator title and the article. In fact the hole article does not contain the word "alpha" or explaining the state once. It reads like that the language is expected to be ready and that all features need to work now, but they don't.

"At this time, I would not recommend spending time on V. I would also be very cautious when taking claims made by the authors at face value."

Also this point. Why does he recommend people to avoid the language. These people need contributors which help them to improve their language. It is open source. Maybe it is because I'm not native, maybe you are right.

I'm also curious if the author even tried to interact with the community/developers to get his examples to work. I'm not that good of a developer to rate the things he is claiming, so I don't know.

Hopefully he created some bugs on github so the developers have at least the chance to fix the issues he is talking about.

Re: V Language Review

#132

Post by creata »

rurban wrote: post #123
prirun wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always interested in new languages and loved your write-up & evaluation of V. I really don't get the purpose of someone exaggerating the capabilities of their language, to the point of outright lies.

Unfortunately that's needed nowadays to succeed. Java, Rust and many other would not be successful without standing on the shoulders of its big lies

What lies did the Rust developers make?

(Also, "nowadays" must stretch out to many decades if you're including Java!)

Re: V Language Review

#133

Post by delian66 »

Tozen wrote: post #38
mawfig wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for linking Xe's blog here! It's a few years old and I've seen a lot of comments on HN that suggest V has improved significantly since 2019 so I thought it might be worth looking into for myself and writing down a review of what I found.

Quoted post unavailable.

> I see though that V supports closures. What are the rules for shadowing variables in closures?

    fn main() {
        x := 1
        y := fn (x int) {
            println(x)
        }
        y(x)
        y(2)
    }
I am not sure I follow - the `x` parameter for the anonymous function, is entirely different, than the `x` in the main function. For me, there is no way for it to be confused with the `x` inside main.

... y := fn [x] (x int) { println(x) } ...

> Well, that seems like it should be disallowed. It makes sense that x can be captured but to then shadow the argument with the same name without error or warning doesn’t seem inline with the rest of V’s behavior.

I see what you mean now, yes, that does seem like another good issue candidate. Filed in https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/14787

update: I've responded to the wrong comment, it should have been under https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31794565

Re: V Language Review

#134

Post by crazywulf »

pxeger1 wrote: post #129
crazywulf wrote: post #112

I do not understand the hatred, reminds me of the last article of this kind. This language is in alpha. I've been in the Discord community since 2020 and no one would think of recommending the language for production use because it's WIP. Sure the goals are high and a lot of things don't work yet or are shaky but that's the way it is ATM. The wording of the article is simply not appropriate for the fact that the lang…

I don't think this article contains any hatred. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an unfinished language - take a look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31775216 (2 days ago) for an example. This article criticises V for presenting itself as a usable language , when it definitely isn't, with all these features which don't work.

But I understand what you are saying. Back when I tried the language I expected an unfinshed state because of the version number, but I guess they should make more clear that the features are the goal and not the state what is working currently.

Re: V Language Review

#135

Post by delian66 »

mawfig wrote: post #42
Tozen wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Every evaluation in my blog is fully reproducible from the version of V I linked to and I've included all the source code used as well. My post stands on it's own. Instead of insinuating I'm some kind of competitor or have a personal agenda, I would encourage you to respond to the actual points raised in my post.

> Bounds checking

    fn main() {
        x := []&int { len: 10, cap: 0 }
        println(x[4])
    }
Again, a bug caused by the auto generated string conversion method for arrays of pointers, that does not check for nil pointers. Once https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/14786 is fixed, that will work too.

It has nothing to do with bounds checking, as you can see if you just use `x := []int { len: 10, cap: 0 }` instead.

> Allowing the user to control the len property is a really bad idea.

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

Re: V Language Review

#136

Post by davidkunz »

creata wrote: post #132
rurban wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that's needed nowadays to succeed. Java, Rust and many other would not be successful without standing on the shoulders of its big lies

What lies did the Rust developers make? (Also, "nowadays" must stretch out to many decades if you're including Java!)

The marketing sentence "A language empowering everyone to build reliable and efficient software." is not true.

Re: V Language Review

#137

Post by [deleted] »

davidkunz wrote: post #136
creata wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What lies did the Rust developers make? (Also, "nowadays" must stretch out to many decades if you're including Java!)

The marketing sentence "A language empowering everyone to build reliable and efficient software." is not true.

[deleted]

Re: V Language Review

#138

Post by bmacho »

theamk wrote: post #80
Tozen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, there are a number of programming languages that I like. And I use other languages more than V, though I do think it does show a lot of promise and possibilities. But more than favoring any language, something I don't like is bullying, unfairness, or underhandedness. If I see something that appears odd or unfair, I can at times feel obliged to call it out.

Do you think it is unfair to point out the lies?

The link to Xe's review may appear unfair. It doesn't have much relevant technical info now.

It may be good to point out that they lied 3 years ago, but that's not very constructive either.

edit: i changed my mind, repeatedly pointing out past mistakes and bullying communities or companies (or scams) should be considered legit, and fair. Still not desirable for the members of the community.

Tozen may try to lessen the critics, link positive experiences or such. Attacking people may even worsen the case for them.

Re: V Language Review

#139

Post by tsegratis »

AndyKelley wrote: post #91
mawfig wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! I even mentioned this in my "Rules of engagement" section: > Features indicated to be incomplete/work in progress/unimplemented will be mentioned as such. Indicating on the vlang.io homepage how much of the language has yet to be realized would go a long way in my opinion.

After I criticized the project for collecting donations on deceitful information, the author put purple "WIP" labels next to a bunch of stuff [1] which led me to make this statement [2]. However, it looks like medvednikov has since removed the "WIP" labels. [1]: https://web.archive.org/web/20190624052507/https://vlang.io/ [2]: https://twitter.com/andy_kelley/status/1142503808901308418

From his perspective, he's been Working on them ;)

Credit to both you and him for the passion and effort put in. I just think his excitement bubbles over into an unfortunate way of communicating (lets call it cute)

Communication is something you're excellent at, in a large part due to your truthfulness

I just think vlang is living in and expressing dreams and visions. Which I agree has problems, but creating a language is an aspirational endeavour

Re: V Language Review

#140

Post by rawoke083600 »

I don't have a horse in this race, but ive always enjoyed playing with new languages from all paradigms.

My goto "test" is doing a simple webscraper and put results in a db.

The above is important and where I(your milage may vary allllot) think many fail or fail to some degree:

Its 2022 your new lang should have above excellent support for:

1) Multicore:(async, csp, threads) I dont care which just that it should be excellent and not some added library

2) We live in a inter-connected work: Thus I require your language to have above excellent support for things like: Http, websockets, json, encryption, auth,dbs etc.

3) Really bring something new or make coding in an alternative a pain. (stupid example: going back to posix threads in c, after coding i. go with channels)

4) Ecosystem:Hit the ground running, dammit if i spend 20 minutes getting a hello world with an external library up its too much ! Looking at you Python having to weave magic spells to get the correct versions and environment just so" is a absolute pain.

5) Pattern matching, immutability, functional, typing: Yea this is where people get very passionate* :) You probably have to include atleast one the above.

That being said my hat and github stars go out to all pl designers ! You at least took a shot and shipped something ! Bloody well done to you all !

Also if you looking to tinker look at janet and joy(web framework based on janet)

PS: Ive tried v in the past and it really was too bad(no program in production yet)

PS2: My dream lang would be lisp-like(more clojure than lisp) that compiles to go ?

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