Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#131

Post by nradov » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:22 PM UTC

cs137 wrote: post #81

lesam wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humanity is much more productive per capita than 50 years ago, but we are collectively working more hours, not less. The goal should not be for everyone to do no work. The goal should not be for everyone to work full time and fear unemployment.

Part of the problem is that people have been conditioned into accepting this weird binary division between Work (measurable, institutionalized, subordinate labor) and Not-Work (everything else) that doesn't exist in healthy societies. The kibbutzniks worked a lot harder than U.S. office workers, but didn't have the problem of alienation and the epidemic of mental ill-health (plus chronic inflammation, obesity, et al)…

Collective farms similar to kibbutz also exist in the US. They are an option for those who prefer that lifestyle. You can even start one yourself.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#132

Post by rbanffy » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

> Once upon a time, it was taken for granted that the wealthier classes enjoyed a life of leisure on the backs of the proletariat

They still do. They always did. It’s just so that now you are the proletariat.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#133

Post by Retric » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #126

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

Just do whatever you like! Are you sure they're wrong? Judging by the people I know, there's little overlap between having a ton of free time and being a happy, satisfied person. "Just eating whatever you want" results in being a five hundred pound diabetic who dies of a heart attack at 40. Are we so certain "just doing whatever you want" isn't equally toxic to our happiness and mental health?

Looking at the people I know there is a huge overlap between free time and happiness. Unemployment is stressful, but looking at the extremes comfortable retirement easily beats constant overwork. And voluntarily working part time beats a full time job as long as their income is sufficient.

It’s only when you compare full retirement vs part time work that there is something of an aberration. But, that tends to be a self selecting population.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#134

Post by actionablefiber » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:26 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #126

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

Just do whatever you like! Are you sure they're wrong? Judging by the people I know, there's little overlap between having a ton of free time and being a happy, satisfied person. "Just eating whatever you want" results in being a five hundred pound diabetic who dies of a heart attack at 40. Are we so certain "just doing whatever you want" isn't equally toxic to our happiness and mental health?

> Are you sure they're wrong? Judging by the people I know, there's little overlap between having a ton of free time and being a happy, satisfied person.

As an anecdote to the contrary, I've just exited a half-year period of unemployment during which I spent a lot of time on hobbies, started eating much better, had nearly no stress in life, and built up a steady exercise routine. I met a lot of people from around the world and learned about them and the places they came from. I'd casually go on bike rides wherever and whenever I wanted and my absolute priority was my own well-being. Now I'm like a completely different person: stronger, more confident, healthier, and more appreciative and aware of the things in life that bring me joy.

I probably dragged out that stage of my life longer than I needed to or should have, because it was just so liberating. It felt like I was doing right by my body and soul for the first time in my life. Were it not for my slowly dwindling savings, I might have stayed even longer living like that. And that's the case of doing zero work. In a society with an emphasis on leisure you'd more likely be looking at work with flexible/reduced hours or extended vacations.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#135

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:30 PM UTC

briantakita wrote: post #106

imgabe wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

Quoted post unavailable.

This sort of over-the-top flamewar comment is off topic on HN. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for.

We've had to ask you before not to post like this. If you keep it up, we're going to have to ban you—not because we disagree with your views (we don't know or care what those are) but because we don't want this place to burn to a crisp.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#136

Post by annyeonghada » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

CodeSgt wrote: post #115

Forgeties79 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’ve gotten older, I have been vocalizing a question to my friends and family: why is it so unreasonable of me to not want to work a job I don’t like, and instead spend my time producing documentaries and teaching audio production to kids? These are two things I’ve found I love doing. They provide value to society. Yet a sustained income from them is basically unattainable except in very specific, lucky cases, not…

Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be? I don't think it's work specifically that's tied to morality, but production. If someone is obviously consuming more than they're producing, then they're going to get negative attention. In 2022 it's not always clear exactly how much someone is produ…

>Has it occurred to you that the lack of people willing to pay for what you're trying to offer may be indicative that it's not quite as valuable as you perceive it to be?

Is producing cigarettes, making apps more addictives, making food superpalatable, synthetizing pernicious drugs and so on more valuable than producing documentaries, studying ancient languages and civilazations, studying exoterical physics topics?

Not everything that we're paying for is valuable and not everything valuable is being paid for.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#137

Post by soraki_soladead » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #126

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

Just do whatever you like! Are you sure they're wrong? Judging by the people I know, there's little overlap between having a ton of free time and being a happy, satisfied person. "Just eating whatever you want" results in being a five hundred pound diabetic who dies of a heart attack at 40. Are we so certain "just doing whatever you want" isn't equally toxic to our happiness and mental health?

That assumes that people left to their own free will and time would end up in a dismal state as the default. I’m not sure.

I’d love to see a proper analysis but there’s lots of evidence both ways. Some people with excess leisure would end up doing nothing. Some would work on hobbies. Some would start businesses or maybe participate in local government or something.

It might also be that, given enough time in a leisure society, people would adapt for better or worse.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#138

Post by nradov » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

cs137 wrote: post #85

imgabe wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are these bosses? Managers? You realize they’re just employees too right?

I do realize that, at least if we're talking about middle managers. It'd be a stretch to say that executives are "labor" or are "employees" except in a strict legal fashion. Executives don't work for companies; companies work for executives. The reasons for this are sociological rather than economic--in short, so long as executives uphold the interests of the upper class, the other rich people who control the company…

Nah. Activist shareholders don't look the other way. If they see a profit opportunity then they won't hesitate to execute a leveraged buyout and sack all the senior executives. This has happened many, many times. When it comes to making money, any notion of class loyalty died in the 1980's.

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#139

Post by jdthedisciple » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

tomerbd wrote: post #55

Not only do we have less time: 1. Both couple partners have to work in the past only one. 2. We work more. 3. We take loans (obligate to future work).

> 1. Both couple partners have to work in the past only one.

Why is it so? I always hear that. I am not married yet but I keep it a little challenge to myself to one day disprove that.

I believe with a clever lifestyle of not spending on useless stuff and moving into a cheap region one can easily make that work.

So I say, brazenly and naively ...

Re: Experts once predicted that Americans would face excess leisure time (2015)

#140

Post by lr4444lr » Sat, Jun 18, 2022, 2:38 PM UTC

hansword wrote: post #25

I am amazed at the disdain for leisure and "free" time and "slacking" in the comments here. If a person has enough to survive, why would they toil and labour? Just do whatever you like! I suspect a big problem is that many people actually don't know what they like to do. Most people with full-time jobs I know don't have much energy left after their workday, and thus the only "leisure" they are still capable of and th…

Security against adversity, delayed gratification for better future reward, leaving a legacy or your kids, or philanthropy... there are lots of reasons not to live by our animal instincts of the bare minimum of how much work is enough for "survival".