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Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

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Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#131

Post by pessimizer »

0des wrote: post #8

Is it mandatory for employees to join the union?

No, and even worse, it is mandatory for the union to negotiate for employees who don't join. That's one of the many ways in which unions are sabotaged in the US. If unions could negotiate for exclusive benefits for their own members, they wouldn't have any trouble recruiting. Instead Taft-Hartley made it illegal for them to manage insurance/pensions that the employer contributes to.

Unions are weak because the deck was stacked, the same way it is in every kleptocracy.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#132

Post by duxup »

anamexis wrote: post #111
duxup wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can be toxic regardless if there is a union or not. Humanity is endlessly capable of finding ways to do anything (good and bad). Unions and employers negotiate what kind of decisions are made and how, but they're hardly inclusive of every last thing. Some of the worst employer's I've had were union shops. It's entirely possible to have the opposite experience too, but there's nothing about a union that prevent…

Unions might not prevent toxic personalities, but they certainly can protect against toxic managers.

I’ve found that to be untrue.

Often what people think of as “toxic” are informal actions and behaviors that unions don’t resolve.

Maybe they can sit with you in a meeting but that doesn’t change how that manager can behave.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#133

Post by adam_arthur »

deep_merge wrote: post #128
adam_arthur wrote: post #53

Definitely wouldn't want to be part of a union. I represent myself, thanks. Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, but industry wide unions are effectively a monopoly on labor supply and bad for society. Look no further than the MTA in NYC. Terrible cost overruns and bad governance of the subway system, for what? So employees can clock extra hours and get egregiously overpaid? No thanks. Comp…

The MTA is run by New York State, and therefore at the whim of Albany cronyism [1]. This is why it’s so dysfunctional. I wouldn’t necessarily blame the transit unions. Edit: also, there’s a history of multiple private subway companies in NYC, it didn’t work out. 1. https://www.cityandstateny.com/politics/2021/01/how-the-mta-...

Yes, combination of the misaligned incentives of government coupled with a public sector union.

Given the lack of a profit motive, a well run government needs incentive structures to motivate results towards societally good outcomes. Too bad none of the local, state, federal governments do. Would be easy to institute if the will were there though

Edit: To address your edit, the private subway systems failed after NY instituted a price cap on fares, IIRC. And inflation destroyed their profitability over time due to this.

Once the subway system was made public, development pretty much halted entirely, outside of an extension every few decades.

Subway systems are private in Japan

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#134

Post by busterarm »

xibo9 wrote: post #88
busterarm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

"unskilled labor" What an extremely elitist phrase.

It's not elitist. Some skills are effectively commoditized. They don't require specialized, rare knowledge, years of training and constant personal investment.

If you pick a job that literally anyone else can learn to do in a few days, then the cap on your salary and lack of bargaining power is on you.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#135

Post by BitwiseFool »

giantg2 wrote: post #58
adam_arthur wrote: post #53

Definitely wouldn't want to be part of a union. I represent myself, thanks. Smaller and wide set of unions in an industry can be effective, but industry wide unions are effectively a monopoly on labor supply and bad for society. Look no further than the MTA in NYC. Terrible cost overruns and bad governance of the subway system, for what? So employees can clock extra hours and get egregiously overpaid? No thanks. Comp…

Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?

>"Have you worked at a company where you were treated unfairly, were lied to, etc? How'd that work out for you?"

I feel like this happens, from time to time, in virtually every company or institution. I know of people who work for public-sector unions and this kind of thing is commonplace there as well.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#137

Post by totony »

triceratops wrote: post #108
totony wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a better term for it?

High-paid/low-paid labor?

Skill is a proxy for supply whereas pay is a proxy of supply-demand. It might actually be a better term, since even if you do very skilled labor, you would prefer an union if there was no demand.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#138

Post by claytonjy »

Xeoncross wrote: post #110

I don't understand unions for tech workers. We're not living in shacks rented to us by the company and can't afford a bus ticket to a new city or school to start a new life. We're making six figures here. Want more pay? Sit on your butt and do leetcode or practice interviews and network with other rich programmers. Move to a tropical island and work remote. Heck, you don't even need to go to college and just about an…

Just because conditions are good, doesn't mean they couldn't be better, or that they will always remain good. Demands like unionization are made most effectively when the demanding party has high leverage. Unionization is a preventative measure against a future potential backslide in conditions.

Not every worker can or wants to work for a FAANG, whether because of skill, time available to study, logistics like location, moral reasons, or anything else. We all deserve good working conditions now and in the future.

Tech workers are absolutely spoiled compared to most other laborers. We also have higher leverage and thus a better chance at unionization compared to many others. Others having it worse should not prevent us from raising our own conditions, and actually helps improve conditions of other classes of laborers by making it more likely they'll unionize themselves or causing employers to improve conditions as a preventative measure.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#139

Post by anamexis »

duxup wrote: post #132
anamexis wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions might not prevent toxic personalities, but they certainly can protect against toxic managers.

I’ve found that to be untrue. Often what people think of as “toxic” are informal actions and behaviors that unions don’t resolve. Maybe they can sit with you in a meeting but that doesn’t change how that manager can behave.

True, but they can protect that manager from materially affecting you (wages, promotions, etc.)

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#140

Post by bpodgursky »

triceratops wrote: post #108
totony wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a better term for it?

High-paid/low-paid labor?

This is a terrible substitute, since there are a lot of low-paid high-skill jobs (ex, graduate students, TAs).

There's a meaningful labor liquidity difference between a job that takes 2 years of training and 2 days of training, and it's important for policy decisions. Sorry?

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