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Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

blog.mollywhite.net

131–140 of 295 posts

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#131
post #49
post #37

I think this article conflates too many different notions of identity together (which tbf, is because the bitcoin people the article is criticizing do the same thing). Identity is one of those concepts that has a lot of parts to it, and you can do the individual parts sanely, but if you try to do everything all at once, its crazy. As a example, my ssh key is an identity system. It works great in some contexts. Would…

Personally, I think it's a good summary of the kinds of identity problems being tackled in the Blockchain space. However, the alarmist tone makes the author seem quite dismissive of interesting technological advances that can be used to securely store data publicly. We are obviously going to be sharing more data in the future and these projects are discovering how this can be achieved. Blanketing the entire movement…

The "dismissive" tone is not because we believe that technology advancement is impossible.

It is because we have been hearing for over a decade about how crypto is going to deliver massive value "in the future".

There is only so much time people will be willing to listen to vague promises of future innovation before they take a look at the actual technology of today and realize that most if not all of it is of little value other than gambling.

My advice to anyone that actually wants to make real products or advancements in identity would be to avoid crypto. Build the product on top of a generic store layer. It will be obvious to anyone with software expertise that Blockchain could be interested in that storage layer of the product would benefit from it.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then fix your institutions. Do you believe you can solve a human problem by forcing a technical solution? Don’t you think you will have to end up duplicating the very same institutions (possibly with more friction, less oversight and ways to appeal)? And if you go full freedom and anarchy, then drop into chaos until command economy next door eats you for lunch? Besides, we are talking about attitudes very much in cou…

See, I know that I can keep up this by simply linking to previous comments. This one is from one year ago : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25906731 (Tell me how a dissenting Russian or Chinese would go around "fixing their institutions") Edit: Though I do agree that BTC has failed and I now think that Ethereum (the blockchain, not saying anything about Ether as a "currency") is more suited to this, here is some…

Personally, even if my opinions have not shifted at all (which barely ever happens), I practice having to express them again so that I find more eloquent ways of doing so. Once they solidify enough, I might write an essay I could mention I wrote, but in most scenarios I wouldn’t refer someone to my own quotes out of respect.

I hold others to the same standard, so for the record I’m not reading links to your own comments.

Imagine people talking by a water cooler; yes I know roughly your view, and you know mine, but it doesn’t mean you should mandate me to hear quotes of yourself recorded at this same water cooler in the past instead of responding.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#133
post #92

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. And not only is trust a feature, it’s a requirement for society. It’s a deep part of human nature to trust, and trust can’t be removed from how people manage to function in groups.

The problem is scale. If society only had 400 people, the 390 people that were not scammers could remove the 10 people who are scammers from their economic system manually.

If you create a online store, one million strangers could connect to it. You need a way to understand who is a scammer in that situation.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#134
post #76

This is a great write-up for introducing some of these concepts. For those who want to go deeper, highly recommend reading up more on DIDs https://w3c.github.io/did-use-cases/ Verifiable Credentials: https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model/ Some people working in the space to follow: https://twitter.com/kimdhamilton https://twitter.com/IdentityWoman https://twitter.com/ChristopherA Also highly recommend this paper by Fen…

> being able to establish identity at all is still a major problem in many places Are you sure? Where? And why would the tried and tested methods for establishing identity not work in those places?

There is a certain company that may or may not be bought by $43 billion, depending on its ability to determine how many of its users are actual humans.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#135
post #125

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

Even without considering the social benefits of trust, from an economic perspective, trust is often enormously, ridiculously efficient compared to distrust. If I need to borrow my neighbor's weed whacker, I don't need to determine its value (plus interest and opportunity cost) and write up a contract and register collateral on the world's slowest and least efficient database, I can just say, hey, mind if I borrow thi…

Slowest and least efficient.. you realize some blockchains update in seconds? For a low value proposition like borrowing a lawnmower you dont need the most secure public network on earth to do it. You use the right blocchain for the right applications.

The problem with trust, is that its awesome until it aint. When we are deaing with gov policy, billions of dollars, war, your life savings,etc a break in trust is beyond costly, making the use cost of a slower but secure blockchain the responsible thing to do.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#136

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

I agree. Trust is fundamental to human society, and without it we can't function. No matter how many fancy technological solutions you layer on top. I think there's a deeper problem that you're ignoring. The desire for trustless systems didn't materialize out of nothing, as has been pointed out many times in the cryptocurrency discussion space. Some of it is surely coming from a libertarian angle of absolute personal…

I heard the opinion where people don’t want to pay taxes that they don’t think do something good, and because the government can freeze their accounts if they don’t pay then they believe it’s unfair.

Presumably, there’s understanding that one cannot participate in a complex web of interdependencies that is advanced human society without giving up complete freedom, due to the presence of the aforementioned malicious actors.

So I don’t understand why not assume other people—whom one without immense hubris would assume to be equally smart—and whom hopefully one voted for, directly or not—have struggled with it and arrived at a solution that works? And if one legitimately thinks it’s a bad solution and cares enough about it, why not attempt to fix it instead? Is this a failure of democracy? Could it be that it moves too slowly for the modern age? Or is there a belief in some underlying conspiracy due to which democracy is not a democracy and no change is possible?

Regarding rogue agents exploiting the system to avoid paying taxes, I don’t think should be a factor that affects my decision on whether I should pay taxes (like what a criminal does shouldn’t be my guiding principle).

What I would agree on is that there’re people incentivised to attempt to benefit at someone else’s cost, and that those people exist everywhere including corporations, institutions, and the government. I’d also agree that, regarding government specifically, it’s worse because such malicious actors are incentivised to actively seek power because power converts to money very well. It’s a truly regrettable state of affair, because government corruption leads to corruption elsewhere. I think part of the issue is democracies being liable to be influenced by kleptocracies in other countries, who funnel unjustly extracted money into Western economies much to the benefit of individuals at the receiving end.

I just don’t think this can be solved technically, we either work on people not being jerks or we will have them find ways to be jerks regardless of any checks, barring complete thought control and predictive crime enforcement dystopia.

---

As another analogy, it’s like a distinction between the spirit and the letter. The spirit is the guiding principle, and the letter is a lossy way to express it. Automatic conversion between the spirit and a letter is not possible: this is a philosophical issue adjacent to the hard problem of consciousness; one human not being able to convey to another human the entirety of what they think or feel, words being always interpreted through another mind’s lens.

Whether the letter can be expressed on paper or as a smart contract, the letter is never going to be equal fidelity to that of the spirit, and for understandable reasons (such as “fallible humans have written it”) should never have precedence over the spirit.

So I wish we invested the effort that goes into inventing higher and higher fidelity letters into, say, alleviating whatever pushes people to violate the spirit in the first place. It’s a much more complex meatspace problem, though.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#137
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even without considering the social benefits of trust, from an economic perspective, trust is often enormously, ridiculously efficient compared to distrust. If I need to borrow my neighbor's weed whacker, I don't need to determine its value (plus interest and opportunity cost) and write up a contract and register collateral on the world's slowest and least efficient database, I can just say, hey, mind if I borrow thi…

Slowest and least efficient.. you realize some blockchains update in seconds? For a low value proposition like borrowing a lawnmower you dont need the most secure public network on earth to do it. You use the right blocchain for the right applications. The problem with trust, is that its awesome until it aint. When we are deaing with gov policy, billions of dollars, war, your life savings,etc a break in trust is beyo…

So war on the blockchain? That sounds like a good example of what is meant by "dystopian." Imagine a world where whether Ukraine gets to stay sovereign or becomes part of Russia is determined by a global consensus of the wealthiest wallet addresses on a blockchain. It's like you took democracy, but got rid of the elements of constitutional republicanism that mitigate the weaknesses of democracy, leaving only the weaknesses. Except not really, because that would be a plain tyranny of the majority of unique human persons and this is a tyranny of a majority of wealth, which may only be a tiny number of people. I guess it's more like returning to feudalism, except the lords and kings no longer have to raise armies and fight each other. The richest coalition just wins automatically.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I know that I can keep up this by simply linking to previous comments. This one is from one year ago : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25906731 (Tell me how a dissenting Russian or Chinese would go around "fixing their institutions") Edit: Though I do agree that BTC has failed and I now think that Ethereum (the blockchain, not saying anything about Ether as a "currency") is more suited to this, here is some…

Personally, even if my opinions have not shifted at all (which barely ever happens), I practice having to express them again so that I find more eloquent ways of doing so. Once they solidify enough, I might write an essay I could mention I wrote, but in most scenarios I wouldn’t refer someone to my own quotes out of respect. I hold others to the same standard, so for the record I’m not reading links to your own comme…

> I might write an essay

Even if I went through all the trouble of writing an essay, it would be a simple collage of all these arguments, maybe organized in some more coherent form. For what? Those "in favor" would just not see anything new, those "against" it would just use it to nitpick and create strawmen in an attempt to keep their worldview intact.

I'd rather keep the discussion focused on the parts that can be addressed directly to avoid this.

> I practice having to express them again so that I find more eloquent ways of doing so.

I've gotten to the point where I discussed this with so many people that I ran out of ways of conveying the same idea. I am not putting the links out of snark. I am putting them because they already express the same idea that I would've typed out anyway. Would you feel better if I simply copied-and-pasted these responses?

> Imagine people talking by a water cooler; yes I know roughly your view, and you know mine.

I am not telling you to listen to all the battle cries or the "put downs" that have been recorded. I was using these links as a way to advance the conversation to a point where we can actually establish the differences. Can you imagine if everybody only wanted to debate something if they re-hashed all their priors?

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#139

The problem I have with blockchain enthusiasts, after talking with them about their philosophy, is that they seem to consider trust a bug, and believe that ideal world is achievable with straitjackets of technical solutions that eliminate trust. Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly. However, blockchain-adjacent initiative…

>Trust is a feature, not a bug. If trust is violated by rogue agents, it is because they exist[0], not because trust itself is a folly.

It's about building robust systems. A system that assumes counterparties are trustworthy will fail in the case they aren't (as demonstrated clearly in modern OS/web architecture), whereas a system that assumes counterparties are not trustworthy will not fail in that case.

> we should strive for a future where humans are not motivated to hurt other humans.

This is the same premise as communism and has proven to be a complete failure: it's not possible to change human nature. Even with a massive propaganda and brainwashing apparatus like the Chinese education system.

Re: Is “acceptably non-dystopian” self-sovereign identity even possible?

#140
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hit the nail on the head with this comment. And not only is trust a feature, it’s a requirement for society. It’s a deep part of human nature to trust, and trust can’t be removed from how people manage to function in groups.

The problem is scale. If society only had 400 people, the 390 people that were not scammers could remove the 10 people who are scammers from their economic system manually. If you create a online store, one million strangers could connect to it. You need a way to understand who is a scammer in that situation.

This is true, and why all political ideologies fail. They can't cater for scale, or when they do, they do so by tyranny, which also fails eventually.

Blockchain/Bitcoin has already been thoroughly corrupted, so ironically will prove itself to be entirely untrustworthy before it even gets established as whatever wonderful thing is assumed is still coming from it.

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