California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime • Hacker News Board

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#131

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

rossdavidh wrote: post #37

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city gove…

> I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party.

No, they don't. Whether they are actively fighting it, meekly bending to it, or crassly exploiting it for intra-party power games (and there are clear examples of all of those among nationally prominent Democrats), national Democrats understand very much how those things, and even more the right-wing media narratives around those things, drive opinion.

The internal dominance of the center-right faction of the party for the last 30 years has been built almost entirely on exploitation of this.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#132

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:39 PM UTC

ModernMech wrote: post #45

rossdavidh wrote: post #37

I think Democrats at the national level underestimate how much inner-city Democratic mayors, city councils, school boards, and district attorneys determine their image as a party. If suburban swing voters, when commuting into the city center to work, shop, go to a show, etc. see homeless encampments and vacant storefronts, it's going to hit the Democrats' image as a party that can run things. Republicans in city gove…

Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible? Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness? Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.

> Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible?

Both; suburban and rural homelessness is less visible, but also less common, in part because urban jurisdictions are inherently more amenable to service delivery (whether by the government or by charities) to the homeless, and homeless people are not nailed down in one place.

> Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness?

Some of it is “shifting”, some of which is just inherent features of the places conducive to Republican political success in the first place.

> Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.

To be fair, Democratic-run jurisdictions do this a lot, too (there are some exceptions, but they are exceptions even among urban Democratic jurisdictions.) The difference is that heterogenous urban jurisdictions can sweep the homeless out of the places where the people who matter can see them without sweeping them out of the jurisdiction or the range of local government or charity service delivery.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#133

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #76

ModernMech wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do Republican run jurisdictions not have a problem with homelessness, or is it just less visible? Are they shifting their homeless burden to places like cities with more programs and support for homelessness? Because I've never actually heard a Republican plan for dealing with homelessness that doesn't involve criminalizing it and sweeping it under the rug where no one can see it.

Isn't Donald Trump a Republican, and a real estate developer? He's the kind of guy who can "deal with homeless" in a very real way, by building stuff - and make a profit while doing it. Win-win!

> Isn't Donald Trump a Republican, and a real estate developer?

Not really. Donald Trump is, for quite a long time, much more of a personal brand marketer than a real estate developer (though “real estate developer” is part of the personal brand he markets.)

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#134

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Jun 11, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

ahoy wrote: post #2

This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story. Even if you accept the premise that crime stats rise or fall in response to DA policies, those stats mostly fell during Boudin's tenure. But if you show the video of someone robbing a convenience store (in oakland! another city entirely!) enough times on loop, you can convince enough voters that Something Must…

> This SF district attorney recall thing is a really good example of the media's power to manufacture a story

Given the degree to which opposition to Boudin comes from other progressive Democrats, including politicians, in SF, the article we are discussing about a “message” to “Democrats and the nation” is an example of that.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#135

Post by mountainriver » Sun, Jun 12, 2022, 9:19 PM UTC

welterde wrote: post #126

mountainriver wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are pretty far left on abortion, Roe v. Wade is much more permissive than most European countries. Race and gender in modern far left US views is also far left by Europes standards and the US is actually leading the way in this regard. Europe is just way further along on the welfare state than we currently are, but thats only one aspect of liberalism

You are aware that even with Roe v. Wade there is still considerable variation in laws between the states? And I wouldn't say that the limits set by Roe v. Wade are at all very permissive compared to most European countries. Neither was the law recently suggested by the Democrats. And keep in mind that the ruling and the suggested law only restricted the limits the states could impose, the states themselves could sti…

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/22/upshot/abortion-us-roe-gl...

"With Roe in place, the United States has also been an international outlier on abortion rights, but in the other direction. Few countries allow abortion without restriction until fetal viability, the cutoff set by Roe v. Wade half a century ago — currently around 23 weeks, because of medical advances. That makes the United States one of just over a dozen countries that allow abortions for any reason beyond 15 weeks of pregnancy"

The far left's views of removing all ties to past racial discrimination, redefining the narrative of how the US is was formed, is extremely racially progressive and rarely seen in Europe.

Re: California Sends Democrats and the Nation a Message on Crime

#136

Post by welterde » Mon, Jun 13, 2022, 2:26 PM UTC

mountainriver wrote: post #135

welterde wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that even with Roe v. Wade there is still considerable variation in laws between the states? And I wouldn't say that the limits set by Roe v. Wade are at all very permissive compared to most European countries. Neither was the law recently suggested by the Democrats. And keep in mind that the ruling and the suggested law only restricted the limits the states could impose, the states themselves could sti…

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/22/upshot/abortion-us-roe-gl... "With Roe in place, the United States has also been an international outlier on abortion rights, but in the other direction. Few countries allow abortion without restriction until fetal viability, the cutoff set by Roe v. Wade half a century ago — currently around 23 weeks, because of medical advances. That makes the United States one of just over a doze…

I personally wouldn't call that incredibly permissive, but just natural scatter due to differences in definitions, but in practice you are correct - only a couple countries in EU have similar time frames in the end. At least if there are no medical reasons or other things at work, then mostly later is allowed as well.

Not sure what you mean removing all ties to past racial discrimination. But having a look at the bad parts of history is not that an outrageous thing in Europe - at least not in Germany.