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Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

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Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#131

Post by lproven »

mark_l_watson wrote: post #113
lproven wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What was strange about it? I wrote it; I'd genuinely like to know.

Hello Liam, sorry to sound judgmental. I was expecting a short list of recommendations or more positive, to go along with the list of things wrong with current distributions. I enjoyed it up to the point when I realized there wouldn’t be any recommendations. That said, the subtitle “ A reasonable list of the least bad distros” accurately represents what the article is about. Again, I didn’t intend to be insulting, so…

Thank you for the apology.

There are already a thousand articles out there with short lists of recommendations. There is absolutely zero point in adding another one.

The title (as you said that is all you read) attempted to make it clear. This is a cynical perspective. It is not a list of recommendations. It is the reverse of that. It is a list of what's wrong with them all.

It is not a list of least-bad distros either.

It is a list of the most popular mainstream distros and tries to summarise, briefly, what is wrong with them.

Because all distros have stuff wrong with them. All OSes have stuff wrong with them.

There is no value in pointing out what's good; a million fanboys love doing that. What value I hoped to add was pointing out what bad, in a balanced way, by even-handedly saying what's bad with all of the big contenders.

The Reg is not primarily an American site. I am not American, and I don't live there, or work for an American company.

In my limited understanding of American culture, bare criticism is discouraged. Thus the concept of the "shit sandwich" where the critic attempts to sweeten the deal by wrapping it in praise.

I see no real value in this. I did not want to do that.

I wanted to say what's wrong with them all, as simple, boiled-down summaries of failings are much rarer and harder to find.

This is something which I rather expected might bemuse American readers, but I do not see that as a problem. It's an opportunity for growth for them. :-D

I suggest that you read the whole thing, and as a general rule -- not an attack -- I advise not commenting or seeking to comment if you haven't read all of something.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#132

Post by vetinari »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #115
lproven wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to bear in mind that while there is nothing wrong with wanting what you want, others may not share your desires. I've been using Macs since 1988 and I've never wanted your point 1, 3, or 4, and my dock doesn't take 50% of the width of the screen, it takes about 5% of it because it's on the side where it belongs and where it was on NeXTstep. So none of this has ever applied to me, and TBH, I can't even imagine it…

Did you miss the part where I say that you shouldn't bother commenting if you aren't using Windows frequently? You just don't know how bad you have it, that's it. But sure, MacOS is great, go back to installing a 3rd party software to snap windows xD

> But sure, MacOS is great, go back to installing a 3rd party software to snap windows xD

Pot, kettle, black?

To make window management bearable in Windows, I install Powertoys (Fancy Zones). Granted, it is not third-party, it is by Microsoft, but then it is version 0.something, it shows and there's a reason why it is not shipped with the OS.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#133

Post by vetinari »

lproven wrote: post #63
jagger27 wrote: post #9

Ubuntu shouldn't be recommended anymore. Flatpak won. Snap is a disaster. If you ask me, Fedora is the new Ubuntu.

So disable and remove it, then. That's what I did on my Ubuntu server. Remove and purge the snap stuff. No problem. And if you wish you can install Flatpak too, but note, Flatpak is desktop-only, whereas Snap is desktop and server.

The problem with snap is, that you kick it out of the door and it will enter back through window.

So removing and purging snap is not enough. You have to pin is so down, so it won't install again. Canonical makes this unnecessary difficult, which raises question, whether it is a fight worth fighting or just move on a system that respects its users more.

On snap being for servers too, is it relevant at all? There are docker/podman containers, systemd containers, portable services... no need for another way to do the same.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#134

Post by lproven »

vetinari wrote: post #133
lproven wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So disable and remove it, then. That's what I did on my Ubuntu server. Remove and purge the snap stuff. No problem. And if you wish you can install Flatpak too, but note, Flatpak is desktop-only, whereas Snap is desktop and server.

The problem with snap is, that you kick it out of the door and it will enter back through window. So removing and purging snap is not enough. You have to pin is so down, so it won't install again. Canonical makes this unnecessary difficult, which raises question, whether it is a fight worth fighting or just move on a system that respects its users more. On snap being for servers too, is it relevant at all? There are…

If you say so.

Maybe it's different in 22.04 but in 20.04, once removed, for me it stayed gone.

I don't think it's worth changing distros over an add-on package format, no. I think that is a massive overreaction and "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face", as we say in the British Isles.

I have both Snap and Flatpak installed on both Mint and Ubuntu and use whatever seems to be the most current. I mainly use them both for proprietary apps, such as Slack, Skype, Spotify, and Zoom; it's considerably quicker and easier than adding custom repos, updating them post-upgrade, making sure their signing keys are current, and so on.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#135

Post by vetinari »

lproven wrote: post #134
vetinari wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with snap is, that you kick it out of the door and it will enter back through window. So removing and purging snap is not enough. You have to pin is so down, so it won't install again. Canonical makes this unnecessary difficult, which raises question, whether it is a fight worth fighting or just move on a system that respects its users more. On snap being for servers too, is it relevant at all? There are…

If you say so. Maybe it's different in 22.04 but in 20.04, once removed, for me it stayed gone. I don't think it's worth changing distros over an add-on package format, no. I think that is a massive overreaction and "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face", as we say in the British Isles. I have both Snap and Flatpak installed on both Mint and Ubuntu and use whatever seems to be the most current. I mainly use the…

Yes, it reinstalled itself in 22.04. As you say, in 20.04 it stayed gone.

I don't see it as an issue of just package formats. It is more of issue, that they want to go someplace and I may want to go someplace else, and the two places are not interchangeable. Snap has control-freaky design, making Canonical the sole controller of what goes through; kind of troll-on-a-bridge. I parse Shuttleworth's remarks of integrity of execution over time as we will force every device to version that we want, at time when we want, and only apps we want and it is something that even Apple didn't dare to do.

So I will rather install flathub repo and keep the option of installing additional ones, than to give Canonical this kind of power.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#136

Post by lproven »

vetinari wrote: post #135
lproven wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you say so. Maybe it's different in 22.04 but in 20.04, once removed, for me it stayed gone. I don't think it's worth changing distros over an add-on package format, no. I think that is a massive overreaction and "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face", as we say in the British Isles. I have both Snap and Flatpak installed on both Mint and Ubuntu and use whatever seems to be the most current. I mainly use the…

Yes, it reinstalled itself in 22.04. As you say, in 20.04 it stayed gone. I don't see it as an issue of just package formats. It is more of issue, that they want to go someplace and I may want to go someplace else, and the two places are not interchangeable. Snap has control-freaky design, making Canonical the sole controller of what goes through; kind of troll-on-a-bridge. I parse Shuttleworth's remarks of integrity…

That is absolutely fine, if that is what you want. Things like this are the reason that I wrote the article in the first place.

One of the first things I do on most of my Linux boxes is to install Google Chrome. I regularly encounter websites that won't work correctly without it, and I have work to do and I need stuff to function. I have to be able to join video calls, so I need Zoom and Teams and so on.

But other people are purists and don't want proprietary apps. For instance, I have had colleagues who were happy to use Chromium but did not want a Google binary on their computer.

It's good that there are distros that accommodate this range of preferences.

I often see people saying "Fedora is the new Ubuntu", including in the comments here. I personally strongly disagree with that. I personally find the range of tools and drivers and so on in Ubuntu to be useful and helpful, and Fedora excludes many of them. I do not like upgrading my work machines more often than I must. Once every two years is acceptable; once every six months is not, and skipping a version and hoping that it works OK every other version once a year is not OK for me.

I want the option of stable LTS releases. I think that's really important. Fedora doesn't offer me that, for valid corporate reasons. CentOS rebuilds are not the same thing as Fedora, and if I ran Fedora on my laptop and, say, Rocky Linux on my production machine, I would have to accomodate the differences.

I personally really dislike GNOME and find it a pain to work with. I have discussed my issues and my concerns with the GNOME development team, personally. They do not share them or feel they are important. Fine; it's their project and they are free to run it as they wish.

But I can run an Ubuntu LTS with Xfce if I prefer; I can't pick that as a built-in option in my earlier example of Rocky Linux. It's GNOME or nothing, unless you add external repos such as EPEL.

These are choices and reasons to pick one distro over another. Some are important to you, and that's fine. I am not telling all Fedora users they are wrong. Their choices are valid for them.

I also find the choices in Debian to be restrictive. I quite like where Ubuntu sits, for my own machines. But I run multiple other distros and I am always looking. Recently I have been quite impressed by Alpine Linux: https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/26/alpine_linux_316_rele...

I also have a mid-spec laptop running ChromeOS Flex and it's very pleasant to use, too.

There's more than one way to go.

But a lot of distro advocates forget that. They are so deeply committed to their own choices that they forget that other people have different preferences.

So I tried to write a piece summarizing what I personally feel are the key problems and issues for me with a bunch of the major distros.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#137

Post by the_third_wave »

pc86 wrote: post #91
wazoox wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I have a Mac too and I don't like it much. I keep it for the ability to run some pieces of proprietary software like Cubase and Garmin Express and similar tools to keep my gear updated, but OTOH I really dislike the overall software experience. If only it wasn't so painful to dual-boot linux on it, it would probably live running Linux 99% of the time (but when I need to flash some gizmo or import some propri…

I spent a non-trivial amount of time trying to get Linux to boot on my [intel] Mac and when discussing with someone who had been dual booting for a long time, almost invariably when they realized I was trying to do so on a ~2 year old macbook pro, they would just go "ah, that's why" as if that explained all the issues I was having. If I didn't already have a windows laptop for work, an M1 mac for work, an intel mac f…

Odd, I recently installed Debian on a "late 2009" 27" iMac without any problems. Everything "just works", no problems with running the latest and greatest of Linux while Apple does not support this thing any more. I did upgrade the Mac-side of the thing to Catalina but that was more as an exercise than anything else given that I hardly ever use MacOS - only to test things in Safari, really.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#138

Post by lsofzz »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #124
lsofzz wrote: post #76

I have two macs. And, yes, I surely I can afford many more of it. But, whether you own a mac or not, once you start using Linux (and it takes patience to do so _effectively_), I can guarantee that you _will_ never want to use anything else. - Linux user for the past 22 years (for the most part been so much fulfilling).

I spent the time to learn to use Linux effectively, and I still want to use something else.

> I spent the time to learn to use Linux effectively, and I still want to use something else.

It does take time to be effective. I like to emphasise that learning to be effective at Linux is not a sprint - it's a marathon.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#139

Post by phendrenad2 »

lsofzz wrote: post #138
phendrenad2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent the time to learn to use Linux effectively, and I still want to use something else.

> I spent the time to learn to use Linux effectively, and I still want to use something else. It does take time to be effective. I like to emphasise that learning to be effective at Linux is not a sprint - it's a marathon.

Yes, I ran that marathon, a 10+ year long marathon, and I still prefer other things to Linux.

Re: Sick of Windows but can't afford a Mac? The cynic's guide to desktop Linux

#140

Post by choko »

bmitc wrote: post #90
choko wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The auto-launching of itunes when I get off a call using my Bluetooth headset is super annoying! If it weren't for the CLI Mac would be worthless for development. The only reason I have one is for work, and only because I'm not allowed to use my own hardware (which would be a laptop with debian).

You can get rid of iTunes launching by renaming it. If I recall correctly, there are a bunch of possible workarounds but that's the one that definitely works if you don't care about iTunes. But it required getting IT approval for upgraded permissions and then a whole reboot into safe mode and change the name procedure using some setting or shell command (something like that). I think it was like two or three reboots…

I found software called notunes that will disable iTunes, but now my Amazon music player fires up whenever I stop a Bluetooth call instead.

And yes, I mean the unix like environment. WSL isn't an option for me on my work computer since our giant corporate IT department has the windows machines on an older build (and locked down to the point of productivity sacrifice) that has poor WSL support. I've used it on my home PC and it works surprisingly well and gets better with each update.

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