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What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

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Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#131
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t it be both? I’d you truly believe the earth is flat because the person who taught you geography purposely led you to believe so, isn’t that both a sincere belief and a lie?

Yes, since the definition of 'lie' covers both intentional and unintentional deception, but I interpreted the above comment to be referring to intentional lies. " Maybe she figured out that making up bullshit gave her power" doesn't read as sincere belief to me.

Using the definition of “lie” that includes unintentional false statements sort of dilutes it to be meaningless. It means everyone is a habitual liar (“you said it was 23C when it’s actually 23.5C you bald-faced liar!”).

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#132
post #51

The final point about positivism is important. Geeks love naturalistic explanations of mythological ideas, however far fetched. Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals. Dragons are dinosaurs. The witch craze was due to ergot poisoning etc. If anyone is interested in what actual historians think about such theories, read for example this: https://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2018/06/delphic-oracle.ht... Tl/dr:…

Edit: I got this completely wrong, see comment from @Joeri . > Trolls are really cultural memory of Neanderthals Stating this as a fact is wrong, it's conjecture, and very dubious at that. In fact a few seconds research and common sense would undermine that. There are legends of giants in africa https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/gigantes/Africa.html > but the range of Neanderthals included that, see "Known Neanderth…

The comment you’re replying to is mocking these theories, not supporting them.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#133
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can dragons be memories of dinosaurs? Or do you think some skeletons were found?

Quick quote from Wikipedia (via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon#Myth_origins ): "In her book The First Fossil Hunters: Dinosaurs, Mammoths, and Myth in Greek and Roman Times (2000), Adrienne Mayor argues that some stories of dragons may have been inspired by ancient discoveries of fossils belonging to dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals.[19] She argues that the dragon lore of northern India may have been ins…

I'm not sure why Scandinavians would need the fossils in their corner of the earth to support this. The stories could have travelled from other parts of the world.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#134
post #123
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The role must have been filled by dozens of different individuals over the centuries, it seems reasonable to assume that there was some kind of induction process for new recruits.

I think so. Churches have practices that some people might deem a bit odd. They involve a learned process and without the influence of drugs.

Alcohol consumption (and production) by monks and priests is well documented. Also they hotbox the whole church a few times a year, maybe the mix used to be more interesting, especially when you have a monastery with a good medicinal garden.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is plausible, we only have to look to social media and politicians to see what they do to people. Take prophecy its much like crystal ball gazing, where the crystal ball reader gives a vague report which is open to interpretation for people who are looking for hope can get something to cling onto. A good example is left handed people have historically been seen as wrong 'uns in the bible so right handed people can…

You should check out the story of Ehud in Judges. He’s left handed and specifically successful in his task because of what was otherwise seen as a deficiency at that time.

Its in the lexicon of the language as well, ie one the right side of the law.

So as AI can show Judges are biased and there is different times of the day people seeking parole should go before the judge to seek a favourable outcome, like just after lunch, science is slowly stealing everyone's privacy and there is no where to hide!

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#136
post #134
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. Churches have practices that some people might deem a bit odd. They involve a learned process and without the influence of drugs.

Alcohol consumption (and production) by monks and priests is well documented. Also they hotbox the whole church a few times a year, maybe the mix used to be more interesting, especially when you have a monastery with a good medicinal garden.

You're talking about Christian traditions, though. This is specifically about pre-Christian cults.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#137
post #7

> Moreover, ethylene in the concentrations that cause trances is extremely flammable, and there’s no historical record of any explosions or fires. That doesn't seem to be true. Herodotus 2.180: "When the Amphictyons paid three hundred talents to have the temple that now stands at Delphi finished (as that which was formerly there burnt down by accident), it was the Delphians' lot to pay a fourth of the cost." [1] I'm…

"There is no historical record of..." is an interesting assertion. On the one hand, it's easy to make and sort of requires no citation because there wouldn't be one. "There is no historical record of Caesar's fondness for juggling." But on the other hand, it's a dangerous claim because it's extremely falsifiable, like in your example. But I suppose it's easy to say "whoops, I read all of the historical records but fo…

“There is no historical record of the deliberate use of psilocybin mushrooms in Europe before 1957”

I had to make this claim recently. There is also a shocking lack of evidence for the use of cannabis in the Greco-Roman period (apart from Herodotus discussing the Scythians—and a reference in Exodus).

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#138

Our question is: Why did the Pythia go into a frenzy? The major theory you hear about this is that the Oracle was ingesting some kind of drug, possibly a psychedelic derived from rye fungi - but who can say with any certainty? Maybe it was just similar to the 'speaking in tounges' religious phenomenon, which has examples from all over the world: https://www.skeptical-science.com/religion/speaking-in-tongu...

Maybe it was just BS. Don't write off the simplest explanation.

One of the main functions of the Oracle was to tell people where to settle, move and colonize. This played a major role in the Greek colonization movement from 800-400 BC around the Mediterranean and Black Sea.

One woman and her priests became a central clearing house for the ideas and issues of the entire Greek world. She was almost certainly the most influential person in the world.

The Oracle work was combine with the Panhellenic Pythian games (music, art and sports). In the off season, Apollo went north to the Hyperboreans — and the cult of Dionysus took over. The Oracle was part of a whole cultural complex that played many functional values. I’m not sure what being “just BS” could mean in this context.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#139
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most people "lie about it", at least not intentionally. I think it's more likely they get really caught up in the moment or something among those lines. I am interested in what in what it would be like to go to a concert of a bar with one of these people.

One of my takeaways from listening to a lot of Telltale (an ex Jehovah's Witness atheist channel on youtube) was that the stereotypical charismatic Christian glossolalia is probably a learned skill. I have heard that people who left these groups are still capable of exhibiting it on command. I have not actually met an ex-charismatic who could demonstrate this to me, but I would be interested in meeting one. I have ne…

Some charismatics say that spiritual gifts have a learned element. “Teaching” is listed as a spiritual gift and no one expects teachers to not need to develop skills, why would prophesying, discerning spirits, speaking in tongues, interpreting tongues, etc. be any different. Of course, there are stories of people spontaneously speaking in tongues because their tongue was moving on its own. My view is that most speaking in tongues is … optimistic, but I also heard a story where one woman was just saying the same syllables over and over, and one day a visitor came over and asked her “do you know what you are saying?” “No” “it’s an African language, and I’m one of about five outsiders who have learned it; you’re saying ‘praise God praise God praise God’. I also met a Vietnamese guy that could not speak English, but his group needed to speak to the English-speaking admin of the camp to seek asylum. This group appointed him as spokesman, and prayed that he would be able to speak English. The next day he went in to talk to the guy, and had no problems being understood, because he was speaking intelligible English without realizing it, and none of them having ever learned English. Those stories are the exceptions, although since charismatics tend to value the experience of God, those tend to be the “expected normal”. The miracles make great stories to tell, but the more normal miracle is mixed with the mundane and not easy to identify (after all, Christ is human and divine, how do you tell which is which? This mixture of human and divine seems to be what the Bible describes God as seeking, so it would make sense he would prefer to work that way)

I’ve experienced tingling strongly one time. It was sort of like a non-localized internal “buzzing”, kind of like if you’d drunk a lot of coffee but without the tightening of the muscles. I’ve also experienced kind of an internal itch, where it’s just easier to shake my hands.

The charismatics I’ve been a part of are more of the love flavor, though. (e.g. “but we do not have a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and [wisdom]”) This feels like a warmth in the chest, and if you partner with it tends to lead either to feeling very relaxed and happy, or more energetic and happy.

It took me quite a while to be able to sense it, though, similar to how it took me a long time be able to taste the flavor of an individual herb in a dish of food. And there’s an element of partnering, too. If you’re resistant to the whole idea, or mad at God/the Church/people/life you’re a lot less likely to experience it. There are times where I missed the experience because I was resistant. Also, it seems like some people are quicker to be affected; by the time I sense something strongly, everyone else is likely to be on the floor. I’m not sure if it’s something about how I’m made or just a resistance to being out of control.

Re: What caused the hallucinations of the Oracle of Delphi?

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not training. Maybe she figured out that making up bullshit gave her power. Seems a lot simpler than "drugs".

It is plausible, we only have to look to social media and politicians to see what they do to people. Take prophecy its much like crystal ball gazing, where the crystal ball reader gives a vague report which is open to interpretation for people who are looking for hope can get something to cling onto. A good example is left handed people have historically been seen as wrong 'uns in the bible so right handed people can…

>Its quite likely AI will…

A deus ex machina, if you will.

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