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The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

timharford.com

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Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#131

Post by gnicholas »

gomox wrote: post #128
gnicholas wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point! We've been selling for several years, but legal isn't our only/primary market. We've made much more headway in the higher education market, since students have to read so much on screen (and don't have these perverse incentives related to billable hours!). But we actually run into the same buyer/not user problem on the licensing side of our business. Textbook publishers don't really care about the student…

So I was checking out your website and thought the product is actually deceivingly simple, but I couldn't find any mentions of actual reading speed improvements, other than the invitation to "take the challenge". What kind of speed improvement can I typically expect? Edit: I found the "research summary" link in the education page, but it doesn't appear to work in Chrome with uBlock for me. The actual "conventional" l…

> What kind of speed improvement can I typically expect?

For a typical skilled reader, up to about 25-30%. For people with reading challenges (dyslexia, ADHD, vision impairments), it could be much greater. One fellow with ADHD (and two PhDs) said that he could read about 3x the speed with BeeLine versus regular text.

To get a sense of what the speed difference could be for you, check out our "Reading Challenge". [1] It's not super scientific (you might have more knowledge of one of the topics already, which would bias your results), but it can give you a ballpark figure.

Thanks for pointing out the issue with the research summary link. I'll get that fixed ASAP! There's actually newer research that shows even larger gains for students with reading challenges, as well as data from companies (including a YC company) who saw dramatically lower churn rates and/or higher engagement for users reading with BeeLine in their apps.

1: https://www.beelinereader.com/challenge

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#132

Post by jamiepenney »

analog31 wrote: post #63
huitzitziltzin wrote: post #51

One potential advantage of the billable hour: My wife works for a company which provides consulting and evaluation services to states and the federal government. Project budgets are fixed and every employee's time must be accounted for precisely. My wife's time is expensive. What this means it that there are many project meetings to which she is deliberately not invited b/c her time is too expensive to be spent in a…

Oddly enough I've been on the other side of this: Multiple IC's brought together in a meeting, to prepare for the meeting with the contractor, "to avoid wasting the contractor's expensive time." Writing and reviewing a statement of work for the contractor in excruciating detail, when an IC doing the same work would just figure out what was needed. I made a mental note of what skills were so much more valuable than mi…

That's pretty intense. I'm a contractor and my clients have all been happy with my ability to work independently - they give me goals and I figure out how to meet them. That being said, I only work in high-trust environments and generally get word-of-mouth referrals for contracts.

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#134

Post by cascom »

nlh wrote: post #81

To build on another commenter's mention of perverse incentives: I've thought about this a lot. I think, regardless of what we say, at a foundational level humans operate on incentives. Billing by the hour creates the following incentive: The more hours you spend on the project, the more money you earn. Period. I know our high-level business brains will rationalize this away in our marketing: "Now my friend, you know…

I think the incentive to bill 41hrs vs 40hrs is real, but talk to a lawyer about whether they care about 2301hrs and 2300hrs for the year and I think you’ll get Avery different answer

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#135

Post by gomox »

gnicholas wrote: post #131
gomox wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I was checking out your website and thought the product is actually deceivingly simple, but I couldn't find any mentions of actual reading speed improvements, other than the invitation to "take the challenge". What kind of speed improvement can I typically expect? Edit: I found the "research summary" link in the education page, but it doesn't appear to work in Chrome with uBlock for me. The actual "conventional" l…

> What kind of speed improvement can I typically expect? For a typical skilled reader, up to about 25-30%. For people with reading challenges (dyslexia, ADHD, vision impairments), it could be much greater. One fellow with ADHD (and two PhDs) said that he could read about 3x the speed with BeeLine versus regular text. To get a sense of what the speed difference could be for you, check out our "Reading Challenge". [1]…

I mean I'm hardly an expert on your business but it seems to me like you might want to put that front and center at the very top of your website.

"Read 30 to 300% faster with Beeline."

Cool stuff!

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#136

Post by tptacek »

cascom wrote: post #129
tptacek wrote: post #103

I've been beating a related drum on HN for years, about billing hours, and I'll try not to repeat too much of it: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... I know this post is mostly not about billing strategy (though that's what the thread is now about), but I'm going to chime in with a simple bit of advice for tech workers that I believe is universally applicable: Bill days, minimum. A lot of…

Do you double bill client days? Many client tasks may just be a phone call or emails?

No, I think double billing crosses an ethical line.

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#137

Post by tacon »

gnicholas wrote: post #27

Another downside of the billable hour: it encourages perverse incentives. I was recently talking with a potential customer in the legal field, and he was interested in my startup's software, which helps people read on screen more quickly/easily. But at one point he turned to me and said "I know one of the senior lawyers is going to ask me if using your software is going to cause the billable volume to go down for the…

An old Mixergy episode from around 2009-10 was a legal software firm. They were having lots of sales resistance until the crisis hit, and a lot of large corporations moved their legal work in house to save money. That customer segment was product/market fit, and they thrived. Today we are entering a downturn, more legal work will move in house, and efficiency is rewarded. You can be assured that if that legal work eventually moves back to outside counsel, it will be very hard to bill more hours than the customer knows the work takes with modern tools.

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#138

Post by majormajor »

weq wrote: post #70
gnicholas wrote: post #27

Another downside of the billable hour: it encourages perverse incentives. I was recently talking with a potential customer in the legal field, and he was interested in my startup's software, which helps people read on screen more quickly/easily. But at one point he turned to me and said "I know one of the senior lawyers is going to ask me if using your software is going to cause the billable volume to go down for the…

I was in a lawtech startup and this is the EXTACT reason why i left and the reason why its hocky-stick never evolved. Sure they have customers, but they cant retain or grow. Lawyers get paid less the more efficent things are. Thats not a thing they desire, nore incentivize. Eventually they will come, kicking and screaming, but dont hold your breath.

Are there lawyers who want to do more instead of doing the same amount less efficiently?

Or are there other limiting factors of how much work they can take on like court schedules or such?

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#139

Post by gnicholas »

tacon wrote: post #137
gnicholas wrote: post #27

Another downside of the billable hour: it encourages perverse incentives. I was recently talking with a potential customer in the legal field, and he was interested in my startup's software, which helps people read on screen more quickly/easily. But at one point he turned to me and said "I know one of the senior lawyers is going to ask me if using your software is going to cause the billable volume to go down for the…

An old Mixergy episode from around 2009-10 was a legal software firm. They were having lots of sales resistance until the crisis hit, and a lot of large corporations moved their legal work in house to save money. That customer segment was product/market fit, and they thrived. Today we are entering a downturn, more legal work will move in house, and efficiency is rewarded. You can be assured that if that legal work ev…

Having worked as a lawyer from 2007 to 2014, I watched the legal landscape change during the Great Recession. Clients realized that firms were having partner-track associates bill thousands of hours on document review, when it could be done more cheaply/efficiently by contract lawyers (who billed at a fraction of the cost, and could be hired on a project basis).

Clients pressed for fixed billing arrangements to save money, and law firms obliged because their books of business were shrinking. But then things came roaring back, and the purse strings loosened again. We may be in for another contraction, and if fixed-fee arrangements come back that would be a good thing for legal efficiency.

Re: The billable hour is a trap into which more and more of us are falling

#140

Post by me_me_mu_mu »

TheNewsIsHere wrote: post #122
me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not as much as lawyers and accountants imo. they're a necessary relationship but its toxic. the systems in place for software are mostly open whereas the same cannot be said for a lot of legal and financial systems. they're not beginner friendly, and have a big barrier to entry from my experience.

Toxicity depends on the people involved. It’s kind of like medicine. There can be high stakes and you want someone who has “done it” before. Someone who knows the statutory law, the case law, the precedents, who keeps up on that area of expertise. It was tempting to buy a piece of software that could draw up the papers I needed to create my family trust, but if I really need that in 10 years and something is outdated…

I'm talking future state. What you're calling out is great, but that's in current scenario. From my experience with lawyers (immigration) - absolute nightmare and again I totally understand why things are this way but just let me vent as a nerd who codes. Seriously, it drives me nuts that I have to put my trust into these guys that sometimes they completely get wrong. If a doctor messes up, I'm dead or close to it that it doesn't even matter anymore. If a lawyer fucks up or I have to proof read my accountant's work because he makes so many mistakes, its GG START OVER.
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