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Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

bbc.com

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Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#131

Post by reom_tobit »

neltnerb wrote: post #27
lukasb wrote: post #4

Mindfulness and compassion are often talked of as "two wings of a bird" by dharma teachers - mindfulness doesn't automatically translate to compassion. This sutta makes the same point: Maṇibhadda Sutta (SN 10:4) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Magadhans at the Jewel-stand Shrine, the haunt of the yakkha-spirit, Maṇibhadda [Auspicious Jewel]. Then Maṇibhadda the yakkha-spirit went to the Blessed…

My issue with this specific concept is that lots and lots of people are lazy and instead of doing compassionate things, they "feel compassion" as a generic emotion through the use of meditation. I studied Buddhism quite a while pretty seriously, and I know that a lot of the meditations involve practicing loving yourself, and your friends, family, community, and that these feelings of love are a core thing to have in…

This has broadly been my experience of secular meditation also, I haven’t explored any other schools.

What did help me though was a book called “Constructive Living” by David K Reynolds. It talks a lot about what you mention. The importance of “doing what needs to be done”.

I got quite into meditating, but I found it just made me go far too inside my own head. It’s easy to feel compassion inside your own house.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#132

Post by fjabre »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #123
danuker wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've experienced all these interpersonal deficits after meditating seriously 2 hours every day for 2 years straight. Wow! I haven't meditated before. That sounds like a lot of time. Do you still meditate? What does it offer you? Has it offered you what you expected?

I'm also curious about an answer. If I may take a guess from my own experience. People from Western countries tend to start meditation practice with a specific goal in mind as opposed to just doing it naturally as it is part of the culture. For me a goal is gaining mental strength and balance. After meditating for a while I reach that goal (at least to some extent) and get overwhelmed by the energetic surplus. That l…

A meditator is a someone. That someone is a product of duality.

The wounds are part of the body and personality. They are not you.

To come out of the duality we can leave the meditation open. It doesnt have to take any particular form and it should have no goal in mind. Objectless. It is this sense of beingness or presence that is a true meditation. It is the sense of existence which is the background of every other thing itself not perceivable to the senses. It remains constant throughout while everything else fades.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#133

Post by SMAAART »

jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

Forefront? HA! My experience is diametrically opposite: prolong Buddhism practice often leads to ego-centric behaviors that are swept under the rug and not talked about.

I was warned about it when I started getting "serious" about my practice, but I didn't believe it until I confronted it, face-to-face, on a daily basis. To this day I am the renegate and persona non grata at my Temple, ex except for the Abbot and my Zen Master who know how to tolerate, navigate, and leverage that BS for the greater good.

Samurai training is Buddhism training on steroids.

Regardless, my practice continue with a lot less time at the Temple, and I have relinquished my Center (the Center that I founded).

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#134

Post by photojosh »

Absolutely true.

But in mine and perhaps others' case, not a bad thing at all. See, I've had years of religious indoctrination and because of my way of thinking, I internalised that so deeply, that I lived every moment in a deep well of shame.

So a little "selfishness"; actually trying to be kind in giving myself the things I've wanted = good.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#135

Post by manmal »

reggieband wrote: post #29
lukasb wrote: post #4

Mindfulness and compassion are often talked of as "two wings of a bird" by dharma teachers - mindfulness doesn't automatically translate to compassion. This sutta makes the same point: Maṇibhadda Sutta (SN 10:4) On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Magadhans at the Jewel-stand Shrine, the haunt of the yakkha-spirit, Maṇibhadda [Auspicious Jewel]. Then Maṇibhadda the yakkha-spirit went to the Blessed…

I think this is partially due to meditation being strongly associated in Western culture with New Thought [1] type movements. This diverse movement is the inspiration for most of the modern self-help ideology. As the quotes from William James in that article mention, the basis is "Mind-Cure", or the idea that thinking the right thoughts leads to physically healing the body. Many people in Western culture get into tho…

Is this not just magic thinking? People used to (and, in many parts of the world, still do) believe in blessings/curses, magic rites etc. People believing in manifestation of thoughts in the body or the external world seems to me like magic just found a way back into our daily lives.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#136

Post by fzzzy »

nprateem wrote: post #115
jackdawed wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the third stage of enlightenment, if you have any questions about my day to day experience.

Is it worth it? Does it live up to the hype of bringing incredible peace and happiness?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#137

Post by BjoernKW »

ramraj07 wrote: post #51

Whenever someone talks about mindfulness or stoicism, the name that pops to my head is Tim Ferris. Like a less crappier Joe Rogan with an actual brain maybe? I still listen to some of his podcast episodes because he gets guests who I want to learn about. But oh my god the narcissism! I get it the podcast is about success and how to succeed, but for the love of god try to take your head out of your own ass for a minut…

> I’ve listened to tens of hours if not hundreds and haven’t ever heard him talk about a single act of kindness or help he or his guests have ever done to strangers.

In that case, you might want to listen to the episode with Will MacAskill (of effective altruism fame):

https://tim.blog/2015/11/22/will-macaskill/

Many other guests who seem to be genuinely kind people come to mind as well (e.g., Derek Sivers, Seth Godin, Debbie Millman) but it probably doesn't get any more obvious than with Will MacAskill that this show isn't about selfish or narcissistic endeavours.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#138

Post by zozbot234 »

SMAAART wrote: post #133
jackdawed wrote: post #82

This is a forefront issue that Buddhism tries to address, both modern pragmatic Buddhism and fundamentalist Buddhism. It's why right speech, right action, and morals is one of the first things they drill into you. Most pragmatic practitioners will refuse to teach you if you indicate that you have some mental problems or moral deficiencies that should be addressed by a professional first, as mindfulness may end up doi…

Forefront? HA! My experience is diametrically opposite: prolong Buddhism practice often leads to ego-centric behaviors that are swept under the rug and not talked about. I was warned about it when I started getting "serious" about my practice, but I didn't believe it until I confronted it, face-to-face, on a daily basis. To this day I am the renegate and persona non grata at my Temple, ex except for the Abbot and my…

Buddhist vipassana meditation is based on deconstructing the ego altogether as well as all desires, and recognizing the illusion behind them. So if people are being egocentric, they probably have not progressed very far in their spiritual path.

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#139

Post by jrapdx3 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #103

Contrarian take: Some people actually need to become more selfish.

I think that's often right, in a sense anyway. Let's put it this way: there's a crucial difference between selfishness and actually having a self. (That is, taking responsibility for all that belongs to oneself--much more easily said than accomplished.)

Re: Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies

#140

Post by doelie_ »

jackdawed wrote: post #108
zozbot234 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vipassana is insight meditation, not mindfulness and not really appropriate for beginners. The closest equivalent to mindfulness would be concentration, or samadhi.

One of the core practices of insight meditation (Vipassana) is to be mindful of your inner thoughts, like through "noting", and observe them through the lenses of the 3 characteristics. You use one-pointedness concentration (Samadhi) to tune into these thoughts. You can also do Samadhi without Vipassana, as many yogis have, but you cannot do Vipassana without a baseline concentration ability. Some people use mindfuln…

Yep...

Funny how nobody addresses the main point, only that my 1-sentence executive summary is not accurate :-)

Main point is: if you start doing mindfulness exercises, you will eventually get into insight territory, and without a cushion of compassion this can mess you up.

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