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Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

talmudology.com

131–140 of 141 posts

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of Jewish communities in Brooklyn and it's hard to know what you're referring to, but if I am correct, they're so insulated against the outside world that they could really move anywhere (and often do, for cheaper housing prices, as has happened to many a modern orthodox community)

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. NYC is known as a melting pot of cultures and it isn't inexpensive at all, even out at the far ends of the NRD and B trains. Why be in a great cosmopolitan city if you aren't going to give your neighbor the time of day when you go out and interact? It's not like I'm talking about interactions at a Yeshiva or a Synagogue, but out doing every day things like shopping, or going…

You're asking why a community that's lived somewhere for generations does just all of a sudden pack their bags and GTFO?

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#132
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, you’re quite right; they did indeed use that word. My apologies for the misreading. (Still, it’s a bit of a misleading translation on their part… women aren’t property in Jewish law, as I already said.) > And the word is unfamiliar to me, but I believe "his yevama" here means that if the woman is his widowed, childless sister-in-law, that this act of rape "doesn't count" for consummating the marriage which was…

I feel the odd specificity of "his yevama" adds credence to AaronFriel's claim that this has its roots in a real case. On the other hand, the story is so unbelievable that I am unable to imagine a circumstance in which this specific fabrication, and not some other, had any chance of being believed. One possible resolution, perhaps, is that this has its roots in a real rape case where the "accident" was more plausible…

> I feel the odd specificity of "his yevama" adds credence to AaronFriel's claim that this has its roots in a real case.

The Talmud brought two different hypothetical cases. One where she was his yevama, and one where she was not. That's because there are two different laws whereby it makes a difference if sexual intercourse is considered to have occurred or not. In fact, the main topic of the tractate is the yevama case, and the non-yevama case is brought by-the-by.

Summary of the laws of yevamot: If a man dies childless, his brother has an obligation to marry the widow, if they both consent. If they do not, a procedure called halitzah is performed instead. Until one or the other happens, the widow can't marry anyone else. If they do decide to marry, unlike regular marriage, there is no marriage ceremony - sexual intercourse is all that is needed to make them man and wife with all that entails. That's why it talks about "acquiring", but it's not in the sense of property rights (there are none!) - rather in the sense of being married (think about the English phrase "my wife").

Hope that clears it up. Now that Shabbat is over, the main bulk of those who learn the Talmud can join the conversation :)

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#133

Gemara can’t be studied by reading, especially not by literal reading of a translation, especially not by someone without the appropriate background. It can be too easily misunderstood and misquoted. It’s just not written for casual reading and every word is metaphorical. I am with TchoBeer in that it makes one tense up.

[deleted]

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#134
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it make you tense up?

There's a lot of prejudgements based off of very little knowledge that goes on. I remember a comment section in a YouTube video about the eruv in New York where all the comments were either like "interesting do you know [innocent question]" and all the replies would be like "not a Jew but [patently wrong information]" or else were just pointing at the othered minority and their silly ways. I'm not Orthodox anymore, b…

I see. Thanks. The context matters quite a bit I suppose.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#135
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. NYC is known as a melting pot of cultures and it isn't inexpensive at all, even out at the far ends of the NRD and B trains. Why be in a great cosmopolitan city if you aren't going to give your neighbor the time of day when you go out and interact? It's not like I'm talking about interactions at a Yeshiva or a Synagogue, but out doing every day things like shopping, or going…

You're asking why a community that's lived somewhere for generations does just all of a sudden pack their bags and GTFO?

Hardly, I'm asking why a community that has lived somewhere for generations remains insular to the point of xenophobia and treats people not in their group who also live there as non-people. Why come to NYC in the first place given it's reputation for inclusion and mixing cultures? It's wrong to discriminate both ways, and having seen it firsthand I don't understand it.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. NYC is known as a melting pot of cultures and it isn't inexpensive at all, even out at the far ends of the NRD and B trains. Why be in a great cosmopolitan city if you aren't going to give your neighbor the time of day when you go out and interact? It's not like I'm talking about interactions at a Yeshiva or a Synagogue, but out doing every day things like shopping, or going…

They live there because they immigrated through new York and settled down in New York. That doesn't mean they're required to integrate with the modern world, as much as that attitude disgusts me.

Required to integrate, no. Should they be polite members of civil society? Yes.

My issue isn't what they do in their congregations and communities, but how they interact with the rest of the world. I've personally been treated extremely poorly by strangers in the Orthodox community just going about my day in the city. Between that and other experiences, I'm just shocked at how prevalent racism is among the Jewish Orthodox community in particular.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#137
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the odd specificity of "his yevama" adds credence to AaronFriel's claim that this has its roots in a real case. On the other hand, the story is so unbelievable that I am unable to imagine a circumstance in which this specific fabrication, and not some other, had any chance of being believed. One possible resolution, perhaps, is that this has its roots in a real rape case where the "accident" was more plausible…

> I feel the odd specificity of "his yevama" adds credence to AaronFriel's claim that this has its roots in a real case. The Talmud brought two different hypothetical cases. One where she was his yevama, and one where she was not. That's because there are two different laws whereby it makes a difference if sexual intercourse is considered to have occurred or not. In fact, the main topic of the tractate is the yevama…

Thanks for the clarification, which makes it seem less like a specific case than I had supposed.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#138

> Rabbi Yirmeya raises a dilemma: If one leg of the chick was within fifty cubits of the dovecote, and one legwas beyond fifty cubits, what is the halakha? The Gemara comments: And it was for his question about this far-fetched scenario that they removed Rabbi Yirmeya from the study hall, as he was apparently wasting the Sages’ time. The irony of this strikes me - all the other Rabbis are applauded for their far-fetc…

It’s a joke and a reference to another part. That’s the problem with referring to the Talmud in secular non-Jewish circles. People have misunderstood it for millennia with extremely negative repercussions. There’s a case in Menachot 37a where someone asks a similarly ridiculous question about conjoined twins which later is recorded as occurring. So the Talmud should never be understood literally. It’s trying to teach…

> That’s the problem with referring to the Talmud in secular non-Jewish circles. People have misunderstood it for millennia with extremely negative repercussions.

Like any other religious text, I'd question the idea it has a single meaning waiting to be understood. Just as Christians differ immensely in how to interpret the New Testament, I'd expect Jews to differ immensely in how to interpret the Mishnah and Gemara (and other associated literature) – of course, there is a certain core of majority-to-consensus opinion, but beyond that there is a lot of variation (you could say the same, roughly, about Christianity–although Christianity's much greater size and fissiparity makes this rather more marked in the Christian case.) Whichever religion we are talking about, I don't think we can necessarily say that in an objective sense, one interpretation is going to be right and the others wrong. Nobody can be sure what exactly was in the heads of the original authors, and with works of collective authorship, different authors may have understood the same passage in different ways–which understanding then is the "original" one?

I think antisemites generally jump to the worst possible readings of the Talmud, and are completely disinterested in any other readings, or understanding the history of the different ways in which it has been read–because they aren't approaching the text with an honest interest in it, simply using it as a means to express their animus towards the community which produced it. On the other hand, sometimes I get the impression that some Jewish defenders of the Talmud are too quick to rule out those kinds of problematic readings. Consider the late Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, Ovadia Yosef, widely considered to be one of the greatest Torah scholars of his generation–yet also infamous for remarks such as "Goyim were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world – only to serve the People of Israel"–while I have never read any of his Talmudic scholarship (has any of it even been translated to English?), if that is his attitude, I would not be surprised if he interpreted sources such as the Talmud in support of that perspective–and yet, those would be the kinds of interpretations of the Talmud which would make its antisemitic critics rub their hands with glee. Of course, views like Ovadia Yosef's are those of a small fringe of hardliners – Judaism has its "fundamentalists" just as Christianity and Islam and Hinduism and others have – and it is unfair to misrepresent the views of such an ultra-conservative minority as the mainstream reading or the only possible reading. On the other hand, it is also a mistake to refuse to acknowledge that the text can actually be read in such a way, and a (rather small, but arguably growing) minority of Jews even do.

Also, when antisemites cite the Talmud as justification for persecution, is that a cause or is it just a pretext? Could it be, that they would have engaged in the same quantum of persecution even if they'd never interpreted the Talmud as saying things they found objectionable? If there is a parallel universe out there in which most Jews were Karaites rather than Rabbanites, and as such most Jews would reject the Talmud, and (if it existed at all) it would be an obscure text of a tiny Jewish sect – it seems entirely possible that in such a universe, antisemites might have persecuted Jews just as much as in this one. They just would have found some other excuses for doing it.

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a joke and a reference to another part. That’s the problem with referring to the Talmud in secular non-Jewish circles. People have misunderstood it for millennia with extremely negative repercussions. There’s a case in Menachot 37a where someone asks a similarly ridiculous question about conjoined twins which later is recorded as occurring. So the Talmud should never be understood literally. It’s trying to teach…

> That’s the problem with referring to the Talmud in secular non-Jewish circles. People have misunderstood it for millennia with extremely negative repercussions. Like any other religious text, I'd question the idea it has a single meaning waiting to be understood. Just as Christians differ immensely in how to interpret the New Testament, I'd expect Jews to differ immensely in how to interpret the Mishnah and Gemara…

It seems like you are knowledgeable about religion. Let me add this. The Talmud is not a book which is studied like others and mishanyot were not supposed to be written. One could think of the Talmud as an aide memoir to guide one’s study but actually knowledge is passed from master to student, since the time of Sinai. So citing the Talmud and trying to find interpretations, positive or negative in your light, is by definition wrong. So one can’t say that one “interprets the Talmud” but one should “recover the knowledge of the oral tradition which is hinted at by the Talmud.”

Re: Bizarre Talmudic Scenarios

#140
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whenever one finds an absurd "rule", there is, generally, a reason [that it was proposed]. ‘Generally’, but not always! Especially in the Talmud. As explained in the article, the Talmud has a strong tradition of using hypotheticals throughout to clarify edge cases in the laws. And not just here: I was taught a few pages of Talmud once (from Bava Metzia , as I recall), and most of the cases I learnt about were obvio…

This is a story of a rape occurring by an absurd sequence of events. The Talmud concludes that the rape isn't the punishable offense, it's only whether the man injured the woman when he fell on her from the roof. Anyone who uses this excuse will obviously not have "fallen on her", and therefore if she has any injuries it's almost certainly due to the violent rape occurring. The Talmud rules this out as being intentio…

The mishnah brings the case as being exactly what happened. It does not say “a person comes and says that he fell” it says “one who fell”. So again, you are misinterpreting the text to find supposed flaws and discard it. Again: one is not supposed to read a translation and think that they can interpret it. It does not work that way and this is exactly why some commenter here said that he tenses up.
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