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Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

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131–140 of 279 posts

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Were, say, the actions taken against Alan Turing acceptable simply because they were legal at the time Kind of an odd example to use to defend that “protected classes make people think other discrimination is acceptable” argument, since protected classes didn't exist then and people thought that discrimination was perfectly acceptable. > I must say, I'm surprised to see you defending prejudice. I must say, I’m surp…

> I must say, I’m surprised you think I am defending prejudice. You are literally arguing in favor of the idea that "it's ok to discriminate against anyone who isn't protected". Prejudice is still prejudice even if the particular characteristic on which that prejudice is based isn't protected (yet...). > Kind of an odd example to use to defend ... I'm not using that example to defend my statement, I'm using it to dis…

> You are literally arguing in favor of the idea that “it’s ok to discriminate against anyone who isn’t protected”.

No, I’m literally not.

In fact, I’m pointing out that even in law (in the US Constitutional system) it is expressly not unconditionally the case for government, as all government discrimination must pass the rational basis test.

For private parties, discrimination is presumptively legal (aside from protected classes applicable to certain private activities), because (at least, this is one way of looking at it) there is no limited set of “proper purposes” private individuals may pursue, therefore the private equivalent of the rational basis test would be a nullity. It can’t all be improper, because pretty much all substantive decision-making involves some form of discrimination. Choosing to buy Coke vs. Pepsi is private discrimination on some basis. As to when particular legal private discrimination is proper, people will have all sorts of opinions. When there is sufficient consensus that a particular kind of discrimination is sufficiently bad in a particular domain to warrant public intervention (ideally, in democratic principal, though of course real government doesn’t necessarily quite follow the ideal), it will become a protected class.

Is “lookism”, but for when attractiveness is a bona fide job qualification, something that should be treated as a basis protected against discrimination in hiring? Maybe, maybe not.

Should we go farther, and establish that in private industry, as is the case in much government employment, we go beyond the concept of protected classes (without also protecting those) and create a legal requirement that hiring and promotion, etc., is done strictly on bases grounded in documented job requirements and duties, with a legal right to challenge and overturn any such decision for failing that even if no protected class discrimination is involved?

Or, perhaps, falling short of a legal mandate, should we expect private employers to adopt that as their own rule, with a private (but suitably independent of management) appeal forum?

Or is the point just to grouse about “discrimination”?

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#132

When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person int…

I've worked in tech in the UK for 25 years now, in companies ranging from tiny startups to SMEs to large corporations, and I've reviewed probably a few thousand CVs in that time. I can't remember ever seeing one with a photo on it. I suspect your experience was influenced by something other than location.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tall people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves.

White people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves. Do you see how insane this sounds?

The social dominance affected by greater height is not an illusion - this has been observed and studied widely. Being part of a majority group (which whites are in the US) is also noted for similar effects. Just because we don't like these things doesn't mean we should deny their existence - that's how you get systemic discrimination in the first place.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some studies I believe that show even attractive african american women can have trouble with low click through / match / rating on dating sites. So if the model was trained on who folks wanted to date (as a measure of attractiveness) the model could still be somewhat accurate, even though not accurately measuring attractiveness. How would models work on rating who would be a good NBA player / runner etc. I…

Are you missing the part where the model gave two scores for the same picture based on extreme desaturation? Terrible pictures don't make you more attractive on dating sites... It's just a bad model. There's bound to be bias in the model but ML 101 would be randomize saturation and hue on your training set

Fair enough.

That said, I wouldn't jump to conclusions on how things like saturation or desaturation play into ratings, a lot of instagram filters for example have an a desaturation effect which makes me wonder if folks like that as a look. I don't personally.

Very well could be a bad model, but sometimes there are underlying factors that result in these bad models from the training set. And no, it's no ML 101 to randomize elements of your input in the training set, though if you want a broadly applicable model you'd look to have inputs that include a variety of hue and saturation (perhaps that's what you meant - I have seen folks though manually start doing things like randomize hue in the set, where the ratings were on the original image).

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of data out there showing that attractiveness, fitness (as in, not obese), and tallness are all massive biases in the workplace -- much bigger in many studies than biases around gender and ethnicity even. I don't know why these forms of identity are almost entirely ignored, while we obsess over others. Imagine if tech companies published the height, weight, and facial symmetry of their workforces, like…

I've always been amazed at the hypocrisy of all of this. A portion of attractiveness is culture-invariant, and quantifiable based on measurable factors such as facial symmetry. Study after study have demonstrated that humans innately treat attractive individuals better than others. Yet we obsess over skin colour and genitalia, without a single peep about the physical appearance discrimination that most humans take pa…

For hundreds of years, among other injustices, it was a valid and socially acceptable business model in the Americas to buy a 13 year old girl, keep her locked up and rape her repeatedly, and sell her children ( your children! ) to recoup costs. Much of our policy is just reflections of that catastrophic trauma in the descendants of all involved.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These are easy things that anyone can do to gain advantages in most areas of life. That seems unlikely. Most of us could stand to gain some degree of advantage, but I'm pretty there some people whose appearance is unfortunate enough that no amount of grooming, hygiene, physical fitness, or clothing will ever compensate for what fate or genetics has burdened them with.

This is overly pessimistic. Virtually everyone could vastly benefit from a relatively small investment in improving how they present themselves to the world (and to themself). The best part is, there isn't one single right way. Most people will notice and respect the effort, even if the particular style isn't their first choice. There might be other things in the way -- emotional barriers, etc -- which may be difficu…

> This is overly pessimistic. Virtually everyone could vastly benefit from a relatively small investment in improving how they present themselves to the world (and to themself).

I think most people absolutely could benefit, but not necessarily enough to level the playing field with the most gorgeous among us, while for others there really may be nothing they can do to level the playing field against even the most shoddily dressed average looking person. I've got nothing against trying to do the best you can with the hand you've been dealt, and wouldn't discourage anyone from doing that, but when we're talking about the innate bias humans have when hiring I think it's worth admitting that some will always have a considerable disadvantage regardless of their best efforts.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#137
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Height as well. We instinctively think tall people make better leaders.

Tall people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves.

Nope. I remember there was a study where non-descriptive figures on paper were shown to little children and they all attributed positive traits to the taller figure and negative traits to the smaller figure. It's not about behavior, there seems to be an innate bias amongst humans towards taller people.

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tall people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves.

White people tend to be more relaxed in leadership roles, because they feel less of a need to prove themselves. Do you see how insane this sounds?

Also, men, because they're physically larger, on average.

The important thing is that this all gets sussed out via whiteboard coding questions, where the candidate is put in a usually windowless box with some alpha coder, and told to solve math puzzles under time pressure, and are then judged based on "culture fit".

That reminds me. Does anyone know how to buy bike desks like the ones in The Zero Theorem?

I'd like to add them to our bull pen and interview setup, now that we're back in the office:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7my1G0TrwT8

(I've found that examples of what not to do are often the most useful.)

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#139

Back in the 70's, your salary depended on your height by about a thousand dollars an inch.

As a 6'8 human, I demand a time machine. I'll pay you back.

If I had a time machine I'd go back to 1988 and mortgage everything to buy MSFT!

Re: Hacking attractiveness biases in hiring? The role of beautifying photo-filters

#140

When I was in England for a short time I was tasked with screening candidates for employment (software engineers). As an American, I was taken aback by most of the resumes including photos. That's just not done here in the US. Some American HR departments might even send back your resume and ask you to resubmit it without a photo. It seems to be standard practice in Europe, perhaps to convince you that the person int…

There's a lot of data out there showing that attractiveness, fitness (as in, not obese), and tallness are all massive biases in the workplace -- much bigger in many studies than biases around gender and ethnicity even. I don't know why these forms of identity are almost entirely ignored, while we obsess over others. Imagine if tech companies published the height, weight, and facial symmetry of their workforces, like…

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