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Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

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131–140 of 222 posts

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#131

"We run it through our deep learning model. Here's 50 gigabytes of neural net weights."

> Here's 50 gigabytes of neural net weights.

.. from few months ago. Weights change daily, most likely updated by another NN.

I guess it's nice that lawmakers understand that at some point these companies used algorithms to search or sort stuff, but industry has already moved to another level. We might be able to explain specific result of neural networks (Shapely values or something like that), but the actual algorithm (=NN)... no way.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#133

Do you think the EU will enforce the law for non-US and non-EU companies like TikTok will disclose them? It will be interesting to see if they will uphold the law equally to all.

All the big guys roughly know what kind of pipelines every one has , they hire from each other etc.

The level of disclosure is not going to break a lot of competitive advantage.

basically need to say what input sources and feedback they use and modular blocks on what different steps go into the pipe, nobody is asking them to expose the actual weights of billion parameter ml model they all probably have .

Even if hypothetically they did expose that level of detail it is useless for regulators as they don’t have resources to run the model , and testing a model for side effects in depth is hard .

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#134

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

Not trying to defend the EU here, but isn't this true of every government?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#135

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

"... allow government to have full control and surveillance over their citizens."

This is hyperbole.

This suggestion is the logical next step of the part of GDPR where it says that citizens should be able to understand how automated decisions are made about theme and their data. This is about transparency for citizens, not governments dictating how algorithms should work.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#136

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

I don't see how it's hypocritical to give democratically elected governments different possibilities that random private companies.

It's government's job to put constraints on companies, stopping them from becoming the absolute assholes they become if they have no limitations. That does not make them authoritarian.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#137
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a great idea but my understanding is that they have not yet defined the term. And that sounds very hard to define.

"I know it when I see it."

I’m just not a big fan of laws where just about everyone could arguably be breaking them in some small way. That’s a lot of faith to put in regulators to always act honorably.

Vaguely worded laws can also lead conservative corporate counsels to make decisions like geoblocking all of the EU

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google doesn't know what the algorithm is anymore. The whole site is a black box.

Same at FB as far as I could tell while I was there. "The algorithm" is a misnomer, popularized by the press but really kind of silly. There are really thousands of pipelines and models developed by different people running on different slices of the data available. Some are reasonably transparent. Others, based on training, are utterly opaque to humans. Then the weights are all combined to yield what users see. And…

What needs to be shared is a high level arch not nuts and bolts.

At a broad level:

what are the input sources like IP address , clicks on other websites etc you use to feed the model.

What is the overall system optimized for , like some combination of engagement , view time etc, just listing them if possible in a order of preference is good enough

Alternatively what does your human management measure and monitor as the business metrics of success .

I want to know what behaviors (not necessarily how ) are used , I want to know what is feed trying to optimize for , more engagement, more view time to etc

This is not adversarial, knowing this helps as modify user behavior to make the model work better.

Users already have some sense of this and work around it blindly , for example YouTube has heavy emphasis on resent views and search . I (and am sure others) would use signed out user to see content way outside my interest area so my feed isn’t polluted with poor recommendations. I may have watched 1000’s hours of educational content but google would still think some how to video I watched once means I need to only see that kind of content.

Google knows it is me sure even am signed out, but they don’t use it change my feed that’s the important part and knowing that can help improve my user experience

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#139
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The « i dont care about coockies » plugin for firefox is superb at geting rid of that problem

I wouldn’t count on sites not tracking you until you actually saved your “custom preferences”.

Of course you can't.

My recommendation:

1. Install "I don't care about cookies"

2. Install "Temporary containers"

This requires that you use special containers for things you do wish to have cookies for such as HN for the login. Other than that, you can safely click accept for all websites, since it won't persist anyways.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I didn’t think I would see the day with a troll on HN. I doubt it’s an AI too because of the coherency of what they’re saying.

Trolling whom? Trolling whom?

These guys send letters every month about artificial debt they self-inflicted and demanding payment under threat of theft, and I'm the troll?

International debt was under 1% before Ukraine, these dudes were asking 20% a year, like the sixteenth power of what the international market was asking. They can perfectly well get credit at under 1%, they can perfectly well function with lower rates.

They just love usury.

They love money.

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