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HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

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Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#131
post #117

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also…

> your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). See https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/10944 : > Before disabling any content in relation to this takedown notice, GitHub > - contacted the owners of some or all of the affected repositories to give them an opportunity to make changes. > - provided information on how to submit a DMCA Counter Notice. (Disclosure: I…

[deleted]

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#132
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially given that the false takedown of the PHP docs dates back to January. Issuing false takedowns against organizations whose code you use for free is a pretty bad look. (It's also a pretty crummy product, I used to use it as an interviewer and am glad I no longer have to.)

May we hear more about why it’s a poor product?

To his credit, the CEO read my comment and reached out to me (as he noted in the sibling comment). Since that email answers your question, and also adds some useful context, I'll just share that:

> So, I generally have a personal rule against disparaging things that other people made because I know how hard it is to make stuff and how criticism feels. I ignored that rule in this instance only because I've been a victim of DMCA misuse from a company and have learned the hard way that the only real repercussions anyone will face are reputational.

> For context on my experience with HackerRank, I have used both the take-home test product and the real-time test product. It has been almost a year since I have used either, since I left that job.

> I found the real-time product frustrating to use; frequently I could not rely on the candidate seeing the same state I did. I forget exactly what the problem was but candidates were often confused by the console not appearing and things like that. In some instances, either I or candidates were booted out of an interview in progress and had to refresh the page. Usually we worked it out pretty quickly, but losing precious time can make candidates nervous and it's not a great first experience with the company for them. I also found that code execution ran slowly, in both the real-time product and the take-home test -- we weren't running big programs, I'm not sure what was so slow.

> On the take-home side, for context, I was one of several people responsible for the take-home coding test for my department and was also (unofficially) the go-to person to look into assignments that were flagged for plagiarism. I found the plagiarism detection results to be pretty incomprehensible -- sometimes I'd see tests with very high plagiarism scores and no signs of obvious plagiarism, or things like a 90% score with just a few innocuous lines of overlap with the alleged source. I understand that flagging false positives for human review is generally preferred here to false negatives, but my main concern here is that if recruiters within an organization take these numbers at face value, they end up rejecting candidates pretty much randomly, or because the candidate wrote idiomatic code that looks like everyone else's because it's the idiomatic solution in that language.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#133
post #118
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down

People and corporations complicit with unjust laws are partially responsible for the injustice.

This. Especially those with real power, such as trillion dollar corporations.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#134
post #110
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuck the DMCA, not GitHub! AFAIK, they're legally required to take down material as soon as they receive a DMCA notice or else lose their safe harbor status. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notice_and_take_down

That is not technically correct. There is no definition "as soon as they receive it". In fact the law calls for "expeditiously or remove" access. Courts confirmed many times that days or weeks is considered expeditious. Github could've easily take the time and wait for SymPy to file counter notice which then allows Github to keep the content up up until courts say otherwise. Github instead elected to remove content i…

That's fair. I didn't mean it literally, but should've been more precise since we're talking about a law.

I wonder how many tech companies w/ platforms have any delay. Is there precedent?

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#135
post #37

Hello, I'm Vivek, founder/CEO of HackerRank. Our intention with this initiative is to takedown plagiarized code snippets or solutions to company assessments. This was definitely an unintended consequence. We are looking into it ASAP and also going to do an RCA to ensure this doesn't happen again. Sorry, everyone! EDIT: update here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31092085

I hope you can go beyond root cause analysis and publish some kind of cost-benefit analysis.

The risks from misrepresenting your copyright in these cases are not small. Diebold Election Systems paid $125,000 in a similar situation: https://www.eff.org/cases/online-policy-group-v-diebold

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said!! Personally, I like designing and building software and have been doing so for 20+ years but after doing several HakerRank and Leetcode style interviews it makes me wish to do something else. I’ve had FAANG recruiters tell me “study for hours per day for a few months” and then you can be ready. Even smaller companies focus on leetcode more than actual experience. I’ve worked with plenty of optimal algorith…

Neither HackerRank nor Leetcode invented this style of interview. The questions you're complaining about predate both sites. The sites were created to help you study for those questions, they did not significantly popularize the questions.

Except, there's a difference when you're in a room with somebody who can tell when the shitty site or the vague nature of a question makes it difficult to complete the request. They can also better gauge someone's understanding of subject matter, merely by talking through the question, approach, etc.

The availability of these sites makes it seem like it's a standard, which adds to the problem. Some small company might not have taken that approach. Now, you don't want to fall behind by not making use of a widely-accepted "standard" practice.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#137
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> your DMCA policy to take down the repository without even a standby period (perhaps with a warning?). See https://github.com/github/dmca/pull/10944 : > Before disabling any content in relation to this takedown notice, GitHub > - contacted the owners of some or all of the affected repositories to give them an opportunity to make changes. > - provided information on how to submit a DMCA Counter Notice. (Disclosure: I…

One of the SymPy maintainers said they responded within 2 hours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31091731

Unless i'm mistaken about the law[0], they can only restore it after 10 business days to give the legal team of HackerRank (the claimant) time to file suit.

0: 17 U.S.C. § 512(g)(2)(b) and (c) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/512

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#138
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HackerRank and LeetCode are a scourge on our industry, for more reasons than this shitty behavior.

Well said!! Personally, I like designing and building software and have been doing so for 20+ years but after doing several HakerRank and Leetcode style interviews it makes me wish to do something else. I’ve had FAANG recruiters tell me “study for hours per day for a few months” and then you can be ready. Even smaller companies focus on leetcode more than actual experience. I’ve worked with plenty of optimal algorith…

> No other well-paid profession tolerates this style of interview one you have experience.

Not exactly true, pretty common in finance/trading as well.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#139
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> solutions to company assessments Sorry, are you asserting that you hold copyright over solutions that other people write?

It would actually probably count as a derivative work under US copyright law. (Don't misread me: I do not endorse, condone, or make excuses for US copyright law. I'm just describing it). edit: Here's an example, - "In so doing, the magistrate judge agreed with plaintiffs’ assertion that the solution manuals sold by defendant qualified as “derivative works” under the Copyright Act. As in Pavlica v. Behr and Addison-We…

IANAL but I believe the case is different for algorithmic solutions.

The solutions to a particular textbook are entirely useless outside the context of the textbook, but the solution to "efficiently find a substring within a string" is useful in day-to-day programming. The takedown isn't aimed at the result of "convert 700m to feet", but "describe the process of converting between metres and feet", which is plain ridiculous.

Re: HackerRank (YC S11) DMCA'ed the SymPy Docs [fixed]

#140

I apologize in advance for the profanity. This really pissed me off. FUCK you HackerRank, for even entertaining the notion of litigating open source projects at scale for no good reason. FUCK you for taking down the the documentation for a harmless open source symbolic mathematics engine without any justification that I can see. What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on? Also…

> What content of your shitty ranking company could SymPy possibly have infringed on?

from the request[0]:

> Someone has illegally copied our client's technical exams questions and answers from their official website hackerrank.com and uploaded them on their platform without permission.

Archive of the allegedly infringing page is here[1].

0: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2022/04/2022-04-1...

1: https://web.archive.org/web/20220114132753/https://docs.symp...

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