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The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

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Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#131

Post by whimsicalism »

QuikAccount wrote: post #81
whimsicalism wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the argument is that the lockdown secretly failed, but we somehow missed in all antibody tests from travelers in China the widespread covid infection and we also missed all the 3 million deaths? Data from China is how we even got the sequence for the virus in the first place.

You are taking an extreme "trust everything or trust nothing" position that I didn't make. I'm saying China has in the past spread misinformation about covid even denying that it even existed when in the first place. People should be skeptical about data from China regarding the situation. I'm not saying disregard it just give it extra consideration before accepting it as gospel.

I am not accepting it as gospel, just saying that it is exceedingly likely that china did avert 3 million deaths. The only counter suggestion is that they somehow managed to cover up these 3 million deaths and the associated covid spread.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#132

Post by munk-a »

memish wrote: post #15

Why are they still pursuing Zero Covid? I know the article includes some speculation on this, but what's the best explanation?

I think at this point it's sheer stubbornness and to save face for the administration.

I personally believe that Zero Covid was a great strategy right out the gate but it's no longer appropriate since this is clearly a global pandemic... but maybe Xi is afraid of looking wrong in retrospect.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#133

Post by whimsicalism »

east2west wrote: post #106
whimsicalism wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really believe they 'averted 'the deaths? or is it more likely they hid the truth. I vote for the latter; they don't have a good track record. They would not be able to hide infection on the level that the US has had it - antibody tests from travelers from China would show it trivially, social media would show it. The idea that China has secretly had 3 million covid deaths and widespread infection without an…

Anyone can look up The Great Leap Forward and official coverup of ZhengZhou flood death this year to know that CCP covering up death is NOT a conspiracy theory.

That's covering up 300 deaths, not 3 million.

As I've said, it would be obvious from antibody tests if they did this.

Not going to keep responding, you are letting your feelings about China's government cloud your judgement on the facts.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#134

Post by beefman »

memish wrote: post #15

Why are they still pursuing Zero Covid? I know the article includes some speculation on this, but what's the best explanation?

Enforcing silly, ineffective policies may serve the same purpose as publishing silly, unpersuasive propaganda, in the sense of this recent article:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30962199

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#136

Post by munk-a »

version_five wrote: post #41
watwut wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I just want to point out that I have the exact opposite perception, that the majority viewpoint on HN is very pro-authoritarian measures (though I think whether they work or not is immaterial, its a silly side discussion to avoid talking about whether a government should be able to impose them or not) Anyway, I think the way you and I perceive HN is shaped by our initial bias. Knowing the "reality" is a lot tougher

I think it's a bit disingenuous to read "People here want lockdowns and masks to not work" and instantly paint it as being in favor of "pro-authoritarian" measures. I personally value individual freedoms but not at a level that erodes the individual freedoms of others. I prefer the freedom to not be murdered to the freedom to murder and I'll gladly accept the freedom to not get sick in exchange on some limits on what restaurants I can go to - that doesn't mean I'm on board with everything Stalin ever said.

We always live in the grey zone - there aren't absolute good actions we can take in the world so every choice needs to be a balnce.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#137

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lambdaba wrote: post #121
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty confident in stating that the average Chinese has overall better immune system function. I would disagree with this, especially in Southern China in the winter. The lack of indoor heating has a huge impact on your immune system, to the point that it is extremely easy to get sick. There is a reason a bunch of old people die in Hong Kong whenever the temperature drops below 5C, which is much more developed…

Yes I'm sure there are other factors, including pollution etc. But wrt. to Covid the main risk factors seems to be blood sugar / blood pressure problems. Possibly because these are most correlated with immunosupression, various deficiencies, possibly immunosupressive medication (to mitigate chronic inflammatory conditions) etc.

Actually, the main risk factor seems to be age, which is also why Hong Kong was hit so hard. Otherwise, I don't think we can say much about the difference between Chinese and western comorbidity risk factors...not without data anyone we are not likely to get access to.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#138

Post by ccbccccbbcccbb »

jaqalopes wrote: post #8

I lived in Shanghai for 5 years and have many friends and business connects there. I would never, ever want to be seen as carrying water for the CCP--the day they abolished term limits for Xi was the day I started planning my exit. I've been following this situation for almost a month now and in one sense it's every bit as bad as it looks. An inadequate and inhumane policy being enforced by an out of touch, or perhap…

> an out of touch, or perhaps even uncaring, government

Perhaps even actively malicious, with "perhaps" converging to "definitely".

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#139

Post by daenz »

andybak wrote: post #76
daenz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>worth the cost It depends on how you value life and death. On one end of the spectrum, there are some people who think we should stop everything if it prevents a single death. On the other end, people who think they should be allowed to do whatever they want even if it clearly endangers others. I don't think it's a question that the former extreme won out in most places wrt covid response. The hard truth is that we…

> I don't think it's a question that the former extreme won out in most places wrt covid response. My perception is rather different. Where are you speaking from, geographically?

USA, PNW specifically.

Re: The silenced deaths of the Shanghai 2022 lockdown

#140

Post by wonnage »

Retric wrote: post #11
partido3619463 wrote: post #2

Given the other stories posted on this site (universally claiming lockdowns were pointless and no medical reason for them), makes me question whether these stories are representative.

Plenty of studies showed lockdowns worked. The long term impact on COVID in vaccinated vs unvaccinated populations has eroded how deadly people perceive COVID. Estimates vary especially around secondary effects like hospitals being overcrowded, but cumulatively lockdowns in the US saved in the low millions of lives. “The study found that from March through August 2020, implementing widespread lockdowns and other miti…

It's frustrating when anti-lockdown folks don't differentiate between lockdown now, when the disease is basically endemic and vaccines make COVID a non-issue for healthy/abled individuals, vs. in March 2020 when there was no vaccine, a mask shortage, a ventilator shortage, no consensus on transmission (the whole aerosol vs droplets shit), and just general pandemonium.
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