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Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

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Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#131

Post by yakak »

onphonenow wrote: post #122
epolanski wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You kind of missed some of my crucial points: starting a business on low budget in Italy is possible. People with the right ideas and knowledge can start ventures easier than they would elsewhere in the world, especially silicon valley where you're much more dependent on (important) private capital. In Italy, that's not really the case, between lower salaries, no interest loans and government funding we have had many…

You can startup an AI automated car driving startup more easily in italy than you can in SV? In SV you can get 10M+ in capital pretty easily - close relative with one prior startup did just that recently. It's VERY low overhead, you can hire (and fire) folks pretty simply. The due diligence on that $10M didn't even require audited financials or anything. I don't know anywhere in italy even close to that.

The buying power of 10m in SV is equivalent to what, 2m in Italy?

There's definitely a lot of sweet VC money to collect with a business office in SV, but I have no idea why a large company investing a lot of its own money would choose to throw 4/5ths of it away.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#132

Post by userulluipeste »

epolanski wrote: post #54
wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but y…

"when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries"

If true, it rather looks to me like a recipe for zombie enterprises than for healthy ones. Don't you want that, if it is to fail, to fail fast?

"New companies get a very friendly, near 0 taxation for few years, and the more people you employ (especially if young) the more slack on taxes you get. Do companies in countries with lower taxes get that?"

Romania is on lower end of all kind of taxes in the E.U., then especially new/small companies (whose turnover is lower than 1 million Euros) there is this tax option of 3% (from income) or even 1% if there is at least one employee.

Education, healthcare, and even government grants (thanks to investment & development policies in overall E.U.) were worth mentioning only in relation to U.S., as Italy does not particularly excel at any of them.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#133

Post by anamax »

epolanski wrote: post #54
wlecometo wrote: post #23

Well the main issue in italy is not lack of funding or lack of talent but rather the amount of taxation companies had to go through and the uncertainty behind a big and complex legal system which makes an average of 8 years for civil processing . these two things alone and the fact there are better places in europe to make a startup (hint: netherlands, germany, france, czech republic, romania, poland) makes me wonder…

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but y…

While all of those things sound good, the US seems to have a lot of startup success without any of them.

That said, Israel may have some/all of them and it is successful startup-wise, so those things are not an obstacle either.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#134

Post by hkt »

samatman wrote: post #65
epolanski wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, doing business in Italy is hard, but when your company is doing poorly financially or is having issues it's the government that is going to pay your worker's salaries. Do places with low taxes have this? And the education of your worker's is paid by the government, so you don't get employees that are desperate to pay their student loans. And so is healthcare, so you don't have to pay no insurance (you may, but y…

The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons. A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction. Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant…

> A full-time employer pays for their employee's health care, it doesn't matter if it comes out of taxes or not.

The difference is that in countries with universal healthcare, everyone who works, companies, etc, pay for everyone's healthcare - an unmitigated social good that many in (say) America wish the US would learn from.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#135

Post by hkt »

miohtama wrote: post #130
samatman wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sum of these affordances adds up to a market for lemons. A startup can hire Italians anywhere, certainly anywhere in EU, so the benefit of pair-for education doesn't require Italian jurisdiction. Everything else sounds really handy if your company is destined for failure, since there are so many ways to get a bailout or take a "loan" with no interest which, hey, you also don't have to pay it back! That's a grant…

> adds up to a market for lemons I have witnessed this first hand in Finland where government grants can generate a lot of inflow for early startups. Because bureocrats cannot judge which companies should stay alive or not, everyone gets money resulting to zombie startups that have not managed to scale even after 10 years.

Isn't the whole point of venture capital that VCs also make poor judges of which companies will be successful? Remember the fact that most VC companies fail, and the unicorns pay for them. How is that different?

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#136

Post by hkt »

L_226 wrote: post #41
tluyben2 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London could work depending on your business. Hope you involved an international tax lawyer; there can be a lot of issues with the German taxes in this setup if you did not do this carefully.

London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork overhead etc.

Why not Estonia? Their digital e-residency stuff sounds great and their laws (including tax laws) seem pretty business friendly.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#137

Post by L_226 »

hkt wrote: post #136
L_226 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

London probably won't work for me. I have not pulled the trigger yet, tbh I am less worried about German taxes than I am running a C Corp from outside the US. Mainly because of the litigation heavy US culture, opaque paperwork overhead etc.

Why not Estonia? Their digital e-residency stuff sounds great and their laws (including tax laws) seem pretty business friendly.

I have the e-residence, however from what I understand I still need to pay a local resident to act on my behalf for all company matters. Probably OK for a bootstrapped SaaS but I need to raise significant capital and want to make that process as streamlined as possible.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#138

Post by samatman »

yakak wrote: post #131
onphonenow wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can startup an AI automated car driving startup more easily in italy than you can in SV? In SV you can get 10M+ in capital pretty easily - close relative with one prior startup did just that recently. It's VERY low overhead, you can hire (and fire) folks pretty simply. The due diligence on that $10M didn't even require audited financials or anything. I don't know anywhere in italy even close to that.

The buying power of 10m in SV is equivalent to what, 2m in Italy? There's definitely a lot of sweet VC money to collect with a business office in SV, but I have no idea why a large company investing a lot of its own money would choose to throw 4/5ths of it away.

Totally absurd claim without any basis in fact whatsoever!

Startup spend (should be) dominated by payroll, maybe server costs. This isn't 500% as expensive in California vs Italy, you made this up.

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#139

Post by Fire-Dragon-DoL »

samatman wrote: post #138
yakak wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The buying power of 10m in SV is equivalent to what, 2m in Italy? There's definitely a lot of sweet VC money to collect with a business office in SV, but I have no idea why a large company investing a lot of its own money would choose to throw 4/5ths of it away.

Totally absurd claim without any basis in fact whatsoever! Startup spend (should be) dominated by payroll, maybe server costs. This isn't 500% as expensive in California vs Italy, you made this up.

Well, in Italy a software dev would earn 1500€/month (anecdotal based on friends), so if you are talking about a software startup, it's not out of the blue. My salary (I'm italian living in Canada) is at least 5x what I would be making in Italy

Re: Ferrari owner Exor wants to build the Italian Y Combinator

#140

Post by miohtama »

hkt wrote: post #135
miohtama wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> adds up to a market for lemons I have witnessed this first hand in Finland where government grants can generate a lot of inflow for early startups. Because bureocrats cannot judge which companies should stay alive or not, everyone gets money resulting to zombie startups that have not managed to scale even after 10 years.

Isn't the whole point of venture capital that VCs also make poor judges of which companies will be successful? Remember the fact that most VC companies fail, and the unicorns pay for them. How is that different?

VCs stop wasting money when the company is beyond salvation.
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