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From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

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Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#131
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engineers with 5 YOE are making $500k+ a year at these companies because they are generating much more than that in revenues and profits for the companies. AirBnb lost billions of dollars last year, and it has rarely made positive quarterly earnings. Based on your example, the engineers are highly overpaid as there efforts rarely generate a profit. They are being paid by funds from speculators (stockholders and ven…

it all looks nice and rosy and everybody patting their back about how impactful they are when scales come into play... and then you as a user are just wtf-ing given app because UI has been overhauled yet again, things that worked before are nowhere to be found, there is basically no migration guide. The simple truth that most software engineers don't want to hear is - people are quite conservative in this. If it work…

I believe most users see a tech product as a tool, "The thing that gets you to the thing". Whereas a majority in tech view those tools more as experiences. An experience puts more focus on the process itself, at the expense of the end result.

Unfortunately this tech oligopoly landscape doesn't leave users many ways to express this preference, but I often wonder if the culture will change at some point in the future as the industry matures.

An aging western population might have an influence here as well, in the long term. Older folks have less tolerance for having to relearn how to do the same thing they already knew how to do for the umpteenth time.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#132

Quoted post unavailable.

> this sounds like political activism

Everything is political activism, by that metric. Inviting tech workers to openly talk about their experiences and your warning tech workers not to openly talk about their experiences are both political positions. Congrats on not backing the workers, I guess?

I'm sorry you had a bad experience in your country, "people writing about burnout leads to Gulags" isn't the lesson we should learn from it.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#134
post #27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective, I've never worked in this kind of company so I'm glad to hear you feel your talents aren't going to waste.

Talents been bought and sold to the highest bidder. its sickens me how dumb smart people can be because money. study hard, work on your talent all your life, so a large corperation can have you micro-optimise its addiction-tech to extract every last dollar for shareholders using VC captial to undercut your competitiors til they crumble and make it look like your talented engineers are doing something for society inst…

well most of us even the ones that get through the merit filters to work at "tech" companies are not that smart. it will take some kind of breakthrough in human cognition to make an impact on the emergent economies that result from our current neural hard-wiring.

right now these fake tech companies are literally the best we can do to keep everything moving forward on an economic basis.

Just as we tricked each other into bidding up crypto tokens, we could self-hypnotize to bid up biotech patents or something similar, but we have not yet decided to do that.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“most of the impactful engineering work done in large companies is performed by a small percentage of the engineering group.” That is probably true. But we shouldn’t forget that these people can do these things often because they are supported by a large number of people who do the mundane tasks that need to be done.

I’m a cynic but I wish that were true. In my past experience it has usually been the opposite, the bulk of engineers are making unnecessary tools, re-inventing wheels, and designing systems that shouldn’t exist and serve as roadblocks to the minority of engineers who are miraculously getting things done in spite of all that.

The biggest cost of bloat comes from people being nice, it is emotionally hard to replace/rewrite code when the author is still there and not disliked by the team. Basically it sucks to make people redundant, so we try not to, and that makes it look like people aren't redundant even when they are.

For example, lets say you give a project to a competent engineer, he writes a clean and maintainable solution quickly alone. But if you schedule it to him together with another engineer of similar status but much less competent, then the other engineer will take a part of the project and basically block it since the competent engineer is unlikely to to take that fight, and instead just lets the project stall.

You don't get promoted for pointing out incompetence, there is a reason managers hires consultants to do that for them. This made me wonder, are there software consultants who act like management consultants and mostly go in and fire a lot of people? I don't think management consultants would do a good job of firing the right software people, they would need to be engineers.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#136
About this:

"I could have left Airbnb before things got so bad. But despite all that I observed and experienced, I truly loved my job."

If I love a job, I hesitate to quit just because some of the management is terrible. As a point of reference, many people on Hacker News have read my book "How To Destroy A Tech Startup In Three Easy Steps":

https://www.amazon.com/Destroy-Tech-Startup-Easy-Steps/dp/09...

If you go read the reviews on that book, one of the most common sentiments is "Lawrence should have left that job much earlier than he did." And yet, I really loved the work and I had a lot of fun, in many ways. Maybe I didn't emphasize how much fun we had along the way, but I think, getting to work on great tech while being well paid is a relatively rare gift to an engineer, so I don't think many of us really want to walk away from a job too soon. I do understand why an engineer might stick with a place like AirBnB, even if the burden is heavy.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#137

Quoted post unavailable.

TWC is literally what it says on a thin: all workers, no backers, just being honest about our experiences.

You can call us entitled, but insofar as we're propagandists, each individual is only pushing our own personal "narrative."

"Building power" is _definitely_ political activism but, again, the way we build power is, primarily, by exposing ourselves to eachother's personal experiences in the tech industry. That knowledge is power.

Think of it as a qualitative extension of passing around the salary spreadsheet. Sometimes, we formalize the exchanges through a speed-dating-like "worker's inquiry" where techies pair off and ask eachother basic questions like: 1. How is our work evaluated? 2. How are decisions made in our workplaces? 3. How do our respective bosses motivate us? 4. How does our work fit into the larger economic picture? 5. How is conflict handled at our workplaces?

These answers aren't collected, except when they're published in articles like this. It's just... good to know what's going on with eachother.

In previous generations, we'd have eachother over for dinner, for poker night, or whatever. We'd join bowling leagues, or the Sierra Club, and people working in the same industry would likely be living in the same towns, and joining the same bowling leagues. These formal, albeit recreational institutions offered workers the opportunity to casually learn about one-another's working and living conditions.

Those activities have largely evaporated since the 1950s (in America, at least), atomizing our society, and making us all supremely ignorant of one another (outside the carefully curated social media profiles, and the highly dramatized "reality TV".)

I don't really know why a literate person would object to casual, even semi-formal discussion of working conditions. (Of course the TWC self-selects people who are dissatisfied with our conditions, but it's a common truism that work sucks, no.)

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#138

> I was sure that refraining from lavish lunches, canceling ski offsites, and raising $1 billion from emergency venture capital investments was enough to keep Airbnb afloat, so I grew skeptical that executives had considered everything in the budget when trying to save jobs How can this person even say this when they don't touch any financial data? A quick look at Q4 2020 results for Airbnb shows a $1B loss on net in…

> There is no "ladder" to being a customer service agent. Experience doesn't scale your value to the company.

Yeah, this is wrong. I have a good friend who developed his understanding of the customer in that role, and leveraged it to become, gradually, a director. He was good, and he was recognized, and he was promoted.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#139
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Engineers with 5 YOE are making $500k+ a year at these companies because they are generating much more than that in revenues and profits for the companies. AirBnb lost billions of dollars last year, and it has rarely made positive quarterly earnings. Based on your example, the engineers are highly overpaid as there efforts rarely generate a profit. They are being paid by funds from speculators (stockholders and ven…

it all looks nice and rosy and everybody patting their back about how impactful they are when scales come into play... and then you as a user are just wtf-ing given app because UI has been overhauled yet again, things that worked before are nowhere to be found, there is basically no migration guide. The simple truth that most software engineers don't want to hear is - people are quite conservative in this. If it work…

This is the unintuitive thing about growth stage companies and just the scale that internet companies can achieve today. They might already have a million users who are happy with how it works and would rather that the UI didn't change. But they are on track to grow to 100 million users, and so if making things a little bit more flashy improves the new user activation rate by a small percentage for the next 99 million users, that can dwarf the preferences of the existing users. Especially if the existing users grumble for a few days but then mostly continue using the product.

Re: From Belonging to Burnout, Five Years at Airbnb

#140
post #3

Am I crazy to think there’s something wrong with the amount of engineering effort going into these startups? When you have engineers working into the wee hours of the morning because you don’t want a cursor to blink on a text field, I can’t help but feel that’s an enormous waste of energy and effort. Since I first used Airbnb 7 years ago, the only real change I can think of is when they added experiences (which is aw…

to be clear Airbnb isn't a startup anymore, they're a public company with around $6B annual revenue and 6k employees
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