Time to fork the FSF • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#131

Post by DanBC » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 6:54 AM UTC

forensic wrote: post #83

jpadvo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we fo…

>horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. And? It's rms. He's the biggest nerd in the world. Nerds are expected to be horrendously, gratuitously crass, offensive and insensitive of people's emotions. This is like being mad that the sky is blue. Pointless outrage.

It's not outrage at Stallman's comments, but asking whether someone who is horrendously, gratuitously crass, offensive and insensitive of people's emotions should be "cheerleading" free software.

See also RMS's disappointment at the developer busy with a new child - start here (http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/36137)

His inability to understand people is distracting from the aims of FSF.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#132

Post by tommorris » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:00 AM UTC

Wait, isn't there a whole stack of organisations that support FLOSS or the same sort of values as openness that the FSF support other than the FSF already?

Off the top of my head: Apache Software Foundation, OSI, GNOME Foundation, Linux Foundation, Mozilla Foundation, Python Software Foundation, Open Knowledge Foundation, Software Freedom Law Center, Software in the Public Interest, Wikimedia Foundation.

If you feel like you want to throw money, power or sexual favours to the open source community, there are plenty of ways to do it that don't involve RMS or the FSF. Or you could just find some free/open source script or app or library you use and like and chuck the creator $20 and a nice email saying "I really like your code, go buy yourself a pizza and a beer on me".

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#133

Post by orblivion » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:00 AM UTC

BigCanOfTuna wrote: post #12

Crass and insensitive but in line with everything I've ever heard him profess to believe. He's never strayed from his goal in making great software available to millions of people around the world, and he's never given a shit why it shouldn't or couldn't be done his way...damn, that sounds familiar.

I don't think Jobs would say anything bad about Stallman if Stallman died first. Because unlike Steve, in Steve's words (vis a vis Bill Gates) Stallman has no taste.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#134

Post by forensic » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:02 AM UTC

praptak wrote: post #91

forensic wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. And? It's rms. He's the biggest nerd in the world. Nerds are expected to be horrendously, gratuitously crass, offensive and insensitive of people's emotions. This is like being mad that the sky is blue. Pointless outrage.

The point of the linked article, as I understood it, was that "it's just Stallman being Stallman" should no longer be an excuse for tolerating this behaviour. It casts bad light on the free software community as a whole.

I guess you need to specify what you mean by "tolerate"

If you're saying it's organizationally foolish to let Stallman be the face of the FSF due to his insensitivity... I can see a good argument there.

If you're saying we need to stop "tolerating" nerd insensitivity by condemning them on blogs and refusing to use their software and stuff like that, then I just think that is childish and pointless.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#135

Post by microtonal » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:06 AM UTC

rwmj wrote: post #121

jpadvo wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not at all with his opinion. It is that he expressed it in a horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive way. Here is a transliteration into humane language of what he said: "My heart goes out to Steve Jobs' family in their time of grief. And my heart also goes to the millions of people who looked up to him as an icon and inspiration. But we need to not get so carried away honoring the dead that we fo…

The RMS posting is hardly "horrendously, gratuitously crass and offensive".

No, it is completely distasteful, and representative of actions that caused me to slowly change from being an FSF associate member to believing that FSF is a threat to free software rather than an asset.

Of course, RMS is not speaking for the FSF here, but there in recent years there is a history of missteps (Emacs virgins) and childish campaigns (Windows 7 sinds, Bad Vista, etc.) associated with the FSF.

It seems that RMS and the FSF (through zealotry) have become disconnect to most of society. Take the Apple Genius Bar DDoSing action of the FSF a few years ago. To the FSF it will probably seem heroic, but to the general public it's just annoying. You needed some help with your iPod, and then there is a bunch of annoying geeks blocking the Genius Bar, making you wait hours rather than minutes, just when you had to pick up your child from school. The next time that person reads about 'free software' or a 'free software operating system' he/she will think back about that bad experience and probably dismiss it.

Where is the humanity?

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#136

Post by jsilence » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:09 AM UTC

In other news: Autistic Reporter: Train Thankfully Unharmed In Crash That Killed One Man

http://www.theonion.com/video/autistic-reporter-train-thankf...

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#137

Post by microtonal » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:13 AM UTC

burgerbrain wrote: post #103

leot wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was that RMS is wrong when he asserts[1] that Apple and Jobs have hurt the development of free software. [1] RMS: " we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's computing "

Jobs popularized the walled garden.

Jobs also brought DRM-free internet music stores to the masses.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#138

Post by 2muchcoffeeman » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:25 AM UTC

Produce wrote: post #53

spitfire wrote: post #39

In the marketplace of ideas Stallman has a simple remedy for his woes with Apple. Make better software than them. Go on Richard, I dare you to.

He already does. The only difference in the perceived quality is the learning curve. Learn the *nix way and you will be enlightened. Learn the Apple way and you will remain ignorant (but have lots of time for shopping, cos math is so boring, right?).

I love the Apple way. Gave me lots of extra time to pursue other interests. Remember, you rely on a lot of people who aren't good at computers but have other skills.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#139

Post by Produce » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:38 AM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #125

Produce wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He already does. The only difference in the perceived quality is the learning curve. Learn the *nix way and you will be enlightened. Learn the Apple way and you will remain ignorant (but have lots of time for shopping, cos math is so boring, right?).

Apple way? You mean the one where OS is unix? The one which comes with perl, php, python, ruby, etc? The one which comes with fee Grapher app?

That's like saying that Android preaches the nix way because it runs a Linux kernel. This is obviously false since the interface presented to the user pushes a completely different way of working and thinking. Using any of the listed software requires knowing what you're doing. It's the same situation on Linux and Windows, you can install PHP or Python all the same and need the equivalent amount of knowledge to do so. If you seriously can't see the 'Apple way' then take another look at their whole business model, which is making things simple enough for people with little training to use. The nix way consists of understanding how the system works, which is in direct opposition to the Apple way.

Re: Time to fork the FSF

#140

Post by jwr » Sat, Oct 08, 2011, 7:50 AM UTC

RMS deserves praise for starting the Free Software movement, but he has been a liability to it for quite some time now. Leaders that start movements are not always fit to lead them when movements grow.

And before you protest — have you met the man in person? If you haven't, you won't understand.