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Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

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Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#131

Post by scrollaway »

hutzlibu wrote: post #125
andonisus wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? They are enemies, not friends. We should vilify our enemies and celebrate our allies. This is the nature of the world. Sometimes you must draw a line in the sand and pick a side. It is not possible to straddle the middle and try to apply the same sets of rules to every actor; each circumstance is different and should be treated with the nuance it requires.

The thing is, if you treat all the russian people as enemies, than they will in fact all become your enemies. If some oligarchs were (secretly) opposing Putin before - then this is the way to bind them to Putin. "It is not possible to straddle the middle and try to apply the same sets of rules to every actor" And this would be, how justice is supposed to work. Apply the same rules to every actor. Otherwise it is not…

> if you treat all the russian people as enemies

Let's be extremely clear: Russian people are not the enemy. Very few people here in Europe think this, and those who do are mostly the xenophobic assholes who enjoy thinking anyone who isn't them is the enemy anyway.

Oligarchs are Putin's keys to power. Sanctioning them is a way to hurt Putin's power and influence, which has a chance to bring the war to an end. Not sanctioning them because "oh there's a chance maybe one of them actually doesn't like the guy" is an idiotic move.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#132

Post by z3c0 »

hbbio wrote: post #4

Without questioning if seizing the property of Russian billionaires is justified or not, if you believe in equity, the property of American billionaires should also be seized by the other countries for the nearly 200 000 civilian deaths in Iraq (which is much worse, but the US-led war lasted longer). Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#Ira...

This would be a tu quoque fallacy, and when speaking of "Russia vs America", you can also call it whataboutism[1]. America's invasion of Iraq was bad, and Russia's invasion of Ukraine is bad, but only one is happening right now.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#133

Post by jltsiren »

someotherperson wrote: post #102
twoodfin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by insurgent & other non-US-aligned forces, with Ukrainian deaths from indiscriminate Russian shelling of civilian neighborhoods.

"Morallly obtuse" as if that wasn't what the US was doing[0]. I guess the Red Cross centre my cousin worked in was a legitimate military target when it was hit with a US airstrike :) Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1]. Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes an…

The real reason why the reactions are different this time is West Europe, not Ukraine. They are fueled more by pragmatic self-interest than by moral concerns.

For a long time, West Europe sought good relations with Russia and benefited from trade. That changed when Putin attacked Ukraine. The war hit too close to home, and West European countries could no longer trust Putin's intentions. The primary reaction was a sudden increase in military spending. As a secondary reaction, West Europe gave ok to stronger sanctions that were already supported by East Europe and the US.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#134

Post by adrr »

radmuzom wrote: post #110
adrr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing people who legitimately made their money instead of ripping off their nation during the transfer of government owned assets to privately owned. Also Afghanistan wouldn’t wouldn’t have been invaded if they handed over the Osama.

And Ukraine would not have been invaded had they agreed to Russia's demands, you fucking bastard.

Did Ukraine harbor terrorists that killed thousands of Russians? Comparing Ukraine to Afghanistan doesn’t work. Ukraine was a peaceful nation. Afghanistan was harboring terrorists and terrorists training camps and these terrorists had attacked US multiple times before. Osama Bin Laden wasn’t even a Afghanistan citizen, he was from Saudi Arabia.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#135

Post by hutzlibu »

scrollaway wrote: post #131
hutzlibu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, if you treat all the russian people as enemies, than they will in fact all become your enemies. If some oligarchs were (secretly) opposing Putin before - then this is the way to bind them to Putin. "It is not possible to straddle the middle and try to apply the same sets of rules to every actor" And this would be, how justice is supposed to work. Apply the same rules to every actor. Otherwise it is not…

> if you treat all the russian people as enemies Let's be extremely clear: Russian people are not the enemy. Very few people here in Europe think this, and those who do are mostly the xenophobic assholes who enjoy thinking anyone who isn't them is the enemy anyway. Oligarchs are Putin's keys to power. Sanctioning them is a way to hurt Putin's power and influence, which has a chance to bring the war to an end. Not san…

"Not sanctioning them because "oh there's a chance maybe one of them actually doesn't like the guy" is an idiotic move. "

Given recent russian history of fights between Putin and various oligarchs - I rather think it would be a idiotic move to target them all without due process - because the chances are actually quite high, that many of them oppose Putin.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#136

Post by Fordec »

scrollaway wrote: post #115
Fordec wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Bezos, Bloomberg, Ellison, Thiel, etc. aren't quasi state actors?

They're not. Do you think Biden has been sitting upon his throne for the past 22 years, giving orders to Thiel and Bezos so they can act on his behalf and in return he can give them a little more wealth/power? The people you quoted have a lot of power and influence. That doesn't make them state actors. The difference is extreme. If you genuinely don't understand that difference, I invite you to read "The Dictator's H…

Thanks, but I have a copy of the book on hand already.

In the book de Mesquita refers to regardless of whether the system is Authoritarian or Democratic, rulers have to please their respective circle of power brokers. The only difference is the number they have to placate. And the US is not the prototypical example of the most democratic and grassroots political system out there by a long shot.

To say I believe Biden has been on his throne for 22 years is such a blatant strawman, I find it difficult to take you seriously. Even if he was a Senator since 1973 who clearly knows how to stay afloat in politics for 49 years.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#137

Post by scrollaway »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #118
5etho wrote: post #63

well, offtop by Russophilis is getting out of hand. Russia was aggresor, in 1994 in Chechnya IIRC 1999 Chechnya, Georgia 2008, Ukraine 2014, Ukraine 2022. Russian FSB do terrorists attack on their own citizen [1]. Case is simple, goverment is a war crime and was for 28 years. There is a whole generation of young people brainwashed by their parents with roots back to 1800s tsarist propaganda. Russians need to step up…

Now do usa! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni... But when america does it, it's a "war for peace!" - https://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1995/11... Look, we all agree war is bad... I live in the balkans, and I had american planes flying above my roof, bombing a country 300km away not that long ago... not to forget all of our "local" wars before that. But saying that america…

The US is not currently invading Ukraine. "Now do USA!" is whataboutism. It's what Putin is using as his justification to invade Ukraine:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/24/world/europe/putin-ukrain...

Please. Stop. Amplifying. Putin's. Message.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#138

Post by gambler »

asimpletune wrote: post #36

I just want to remind those who are talking about due process that this is about crowd sourcing where assets of Russian oligarchs are. That is not the same thing as denying them due process. In other words, it's just a website. On the other hand, the actual due process part happen when the actual authorities of those countries, follow the laws of their country, and seize those assets because of sanctions.

Reframing mass doxing as crowd sourcing doesn't change the basic dynamics of what's going on.

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#139

Post by this_was_posted »

sunshinerag wrote: post #101
this_was_posted wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing them to retire, I for one would be interested to see what these productive people would come up with when they shift their goal from making a great profit to making a great social impact.

Great profit and great social impact are not mutually exclusive

True, though I do think great profit is not possible with _maximal_ social impact (unless hoarding cash serves to restrict total consumption and thus limit climate impact).

Re: Mapping and Seizing the Oligarchs' Assets

#140

Post by stef25 »

someotherperson wrote: post #102
twoodfin wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside the confiscation question, it’s morally obtuse to liken Iraqi civilian deaths, the top cause of which per that link was execution after capture by insurgent & other non-US-aligned forces, with Ukrainian deaths from indiscriminate Russian shelling of civilian neighborhoods.

"Morallly obtuse" as if that wasn't what the US was doing[0]. I guess the Red Cross centre my cousin worked in was a legitimate military target when it was hit with a US airstrike :) Perhaps if anyone asks the Russians they can just say it was worth it[1]. Let's stop with pretending that the reason why Ukrainian deaths are different is for any other reason than because they're pale skilled Europeans with blue eyes an…

Humans seem to have some kind of radius around their emotional center. Personally I'm not ashamed to admit my emotional responses get weaker in response to events that spread outward from my kids, immediate family, my own town, my own country etc ... you get the idea. A bomb going off in Syria doesn't shake me as much as a bomb going off in my home town and that's not a hypothetical example. I'm sure people in Nigeria don't lose much sleep over a bomb going off in Brussels airport. Does that make them racist?

What's happening in Ukraine is a completely unprovoked attack by a nuclear power led by a madman who seems to have lost all grip on reality. The potential for escalation in to something nobody ever imagined possible is very real.

Lastly, there's also such a thing as "intent". Cynical responses will surely follow but I'm convinced that while the US made many colossal mistakes in the Middle East they never came close to having malicious drive that Russia is showing now.

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