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When families un-adopt a child (2018)

theatlantic.com

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Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#131

Post by dahdum »

mucholove wrote: post #116
david38 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“No matter what” covers a lot of territory. What if your adopted child seriously harms your new baby because they have severe attachment disorder? Are psychopathic, whatever? Lots of children available for adoption have all kinds of problems that standard parents can’t deal with. Abandoning is one thing. Recognizing you’re in way over your head is another.

When you are way in over your head, the way out is to push through the dip. A startup will have that moment. A theatre production will have that moment. Pretty much everything will have that moment. Kids too. My biological brother almost drowned me and we somehow worked it out. Having kids is a very serious affair. They didnt choose to have you. You chose to have them. It is probably the most important arena in life.…

> When you are way in over your head, the way out is to push through the dip. A startup will have that moment.

Most startups fail. Most restaurants fail. Most businesses fail.

> A theatre production will have that moment.

4/5 theatre productions lose money.

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#132

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

These sort of forum posts should come with 2 disclaimers.

I'm a parent. Y/N I'm adopted. Y/N

With that out of the way, people need to realize that the adoption pool is biased to kids with severe issues. Mostly because some portion of kids were places on adoption because of genetic issues, and the rest will probably develop issues as a result of adoptio. Only the very best of parents are even considering adoption from said pool.

I was surprised the failure rate is only ~5%. We can hope for better but -i think- 5% can be celebrated.

Y N

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#133

Post by TameAntelope »

notch656a wrote: post #129
TameAntelope wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not worried about a kid being where they are theoretically best off, I'm worried about moving kids out of situations that are "below the line" of tolerability. The goal of having these adopted children thrive is secondary to the goal of raising them to the age of 18 with the highest chance of avoiding problematic damage. Your idea of moving children from home to home in a search for their "best" home is not a vi…

>Two parents, ideally their parents, is best. Absent that, continuity is the next best thing. >I am not worried about a kid being where they are theoretically best of Again you contradict yourself. Earlier you were worried about what's "best." Now you claim you're not. The fact that you continue to contradict yourself is a product of your inability to discuss this rationally (nor with 'continuity'), not not due to so…

What I wrote isn't contradictory, but if you can't figure that out, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#134

Post by [deleted] »

xwdv wrote: post #127
massysett wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get cheaper as they get older. Child care for infants is extremely expensive, or the opportunity cost of staying home and watching them. Are you thinking college? Despite what expensive selective private colleges want you to think, parents do not have to pay for it.

With that logic, a child can be super cheap if you just pay the bare minimum to live. No cars, no phones, no college.

[deleted]

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#135

Post by notch656a »

TameAntelope wrote: post #133
notch656a wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Two parents, ideally their parents, is best. Absent that, continuity is the next best thing. >I am not worried about a kid being where they are theoretically best of Again you contradict yourself. Earlier you were worried about what's "best." Now you claim you're not. The fact that you continue to contradict yourself is a product of your inability to discuss this rationally (nor with 'continuity'), not not due to so…

What I wrote isn't contradictory, but if you can't figure that out, there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Repeatedly engaging in your contradictory arguments isn't really something you should act on, nor is it something society ought to let you indulge. We're in agreement, there isn't much point in allowing you to indulge in these fallacies further. Adios.

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#136

Post by Handytinge »

xwdv wrote: post #127
massysett wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get cheaper as they get older. Child care for infants is extremely expensive, or the opportunity cost of staying home and watching them. Are you thinking college? Despite what expensive selective private colleges want you to think, parents do not have to pay for it.

With that logic, a child can be super cheap if you just pay the bare minimum to live. No cars, no phones, no college.

What a weird list of bare minimums. What child requires a car or phone?

If they want one, surely they can get a job and pay for one?

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#137

Post by xwdv »

Handytinge wrote: post #136
xwdv wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that logic, a child can be super cheap if you just pay the bare minimum to live. No cars, no phones, no college.

What a weird list of bare minimums. What child requires a car or phone? If they want one, surely they can get a job and pay for one?

If those don’t qualify for bare minimums to you, I shudder to think about what you think are actual bare minimums.

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#138

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #117
arrow7000 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because you think it's a moral duty other people shouldn't get access to birth control?

Did I say anything about birth control? I’m not Catholic. I’m talking about defining “child free” as some sort of identity instead of being a disappointment to your mom quietly. It’s like building an identity around stealing other people’s lunches from the office fridge. If you’re going to do it, do it in a way that maintains plausible deniability.

As a Catholic: this is a bad, reactionary take. Pull up any of the dozens of lists of "famous childless people" Google will give you and note how many of them you wouldn't ever think to accuse of "stealing other people's lunches from the office fridge". Our duty is to leave the world a better place than we found it. One way to do that is indeed to raise children to keep the ball rolling forward, but there are others.

Obnoxious cosmopolitan liberals are, well, obnoxious about valorizing childlessness, which is not by itself a moral virtue. But forgoing the comforts of family in the service of a greater goal is. You're trying to take soi-disant elites down a peg, as you often do, but you've wildly overshot your mark here.

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#139

Post by kasey_junk »

rayiner wrote: post #95
Permit wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an unusually low-value comment from an otherwise high-value commenter. Do you take issue with the label “child free” or with the fact that some couples would prefer not to have children? Or maybe with the idea that an organization advocates for these people?

All of the above. I’m from a Muslim country—in Islam, getting married and having children (if you’re able) is a moral duty. I was never a practicing Muslim, but I believe that this view is basically correct. Society as a whole needs to be engaged in the project of raising the next generation, and that breaks down if having children is treated as an individual choice. Raising kids in America—especially in urban areas…

“Society as a whole needs to be engaged in the project of raising the next generation, and that breaks down if having children is treated as an individual choice. Raising kids in America—especially in urban areas among more educated people—is just such a sad, atomized experience”

This entire paragraph is three assertions given without evidence. Feel free to own these ideas as if they are truths but arguing axiomatically from them is just wrong.

For me, I think you can find a plethora of examples throughout history that show positive societal contributions from people divorced from child rearing and raising a child is the very definition of personal choice.

Finally, I’m in about the most liberal, urban, educated environment you can live in the US and I can’t imagine how much more engaged the community could be in for parenting. It’s a source of constant joy to me how engaged my family is with our community and vice versa.

Perhaps your view on this reflects the specific choices you made in where to live and raise your family? Try not to extrapolate too much from a singular data point.

Re: When families un-adopt a child (2018)

#140

Post by pen2l »

rayiner wrote: post #119
toomuchtodo wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children owe their parents and extended family nothing, as they had no choice being brought into the world. What they do with their life is entirely their choosing. Not everyone considers children joyful, but instead a burdensome, unnecessary obligation they can opt out of in nations with strong human rights protections. There is a difference between suicide as a species and an individual voluntarily choosing to not…

> Children owe their parents and extended family nothing, as they had no choice being brought into the world. What they do with their life is entirely their choosing. Terminal-state Western individualism. Not everything is about “choice.” Life chooses for us, gives us roles and duties and obligations. We come into this world owing a debt to our parents and family who help care for us that we can never repay, only pay…

I chime in only to say thank you, because a mere upvote seemed insufficient. Nowhere else, other than from you, can I get these viewpoints, and uttered in such thought-provoking and impactful ways. Please never leave us. :)
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