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Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

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Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#131

No. You have misunderstood. For starters, it'd be hard to argue that RT is "operating" within the EU if the only way to access their content was via TOR. It's not; you can still just view their website as far as my colleagues are telling me. The thing that's being denied here is their ability to operating business and broadcast - already a very highly regulated thing in most (all?) countries, within EU borders. In pr…

You seem overly focused on the term "broadcast" while the text of the law seems to pretty explicitly include any means of distribution, including video hosting sites, video watching apps (including P2P?) And ISPs:

> transmission or distribution by any means such as cable, satellite, IP-TV, internet service providers, internet video-sharing platforms or applications, whether new or pre-installed.

Since this is a legal obligation, I fail so see how EU protections against ISP censorship would apply. The "court order blocking illegal content" is an example, not an exhaustive list of the ways a legal obligation to censorship could pertain.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#132

I believe those propagandising on behalf of an enemy - ideological or armed - without fully understanding their goals are called "useful idiots". Watch and marvel at how this term gains meaning on this thread.

Like spreading a meme about a fighter ace that never existed? I’ve seen a lot of that, it’s wild to see misinformation spread like wildfire.

Pardon me, but how exactly is spreading an image of a war time hero - that frankly if real or not is needed - the same as spreading the notion that the west needs to be unraveled, the american capitalism destroyed (sure it needs improvement, but total obliteration?), countries erased, and that entire ethnicities shouldn't exist?

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#133
post #120

Quoted post unavailable.

Funny, last time I saw a totalitarian government they would imprison you just for saying what you are saying. You know like the arrested people for protesting against the war in Moscow. Calling the banning of a foreign broadcasting company “totalitarism” seems a bit like overblowing it. Probably you have no idea what totalirism means on your skin.

It seems like a modern trend to label any restriction on anything in the west as dictatorship and therefore 100% equivalent or worse to non-western less free countries. I wonder how much of this is fuelled by non-western propaganda agents ("troll factories")

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#134

It's depressing how utterly normal this level of censorship has become in Western society. Ten years ago there would have been at least a modicum of ho-hum about decisions to ban foreign media. I've watched RT on a few occasions and I never thought their reporting outright propaganda. It does have a clear non-pro-West bias which gives you a dose of awareness that Western reporting is biased too.

> I've watched RT on a few occasions and I never thought their reporting outright propaganda.

This is the problem. For effective propaganda you don't want it to be easily detectable as such. Therefore the majority of your material isn't directly propaganda. I read somewhere it's 5-10% is the payload. You don't make that obviously propaganda of course too.

On a channel like RT or Sputnik this is how you are going to operate - not least because those channels are for an external audience, who does have other sources.

Inside of Russia your propaganda probably works roughly similarly, but you can have more of it, and you can be more confident the audience doesn't regular access other sources. In a time of war you can go full propaganda.

I've watched RT in the past and been surprised by some of the reporting, and covering things that seemed not really covered by regular sources.

The problem is because of what it is it's very hard to know what's real reporting and what is propaganda payload.

So I avoid it.

I don't think there is a problem limiting it's availability. Right now it's super freely available.

What's the bar you might ask? That's hard. Partly it's intent, and that's hard to prove. You could also work out how much and how bad the propaganda is on a channel. Again not necessarily easily.

Really though the problem here is a trust problem with Putins Russia. It's well documented their activities in disinformation and with election interference.

They are not currently a good actor. This is covered in part of Hypernormalization documentary (and others).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT0bzehQgO8

If you believe this is the case (as I do) then the bar for their restriction is actually pretty low. I think it's in the interest of the world that access to propaganda vehicles, such as RT and Sputnik, should be limited.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#135
post #13

IANAL but to me, this looks (hopefully unintentionally) much more insidious (emphasis mine): > It shall be prohibited for operators to broadcast or to enable, facilitate or otherwise contribute to broadcast, any content by the legal persons, entities or bodies listed in Annex XV, including through transmission or distribution by any means such as cable, satellite, IP-TV, internet service providers, internet video-sha…

IANAL, but as far as I know, EU laws are more important than national laws (you can search "Supremacy of EU law") except in Germany, so the question is if it violates the equivalent of the constitution of the EU. According to EU officials, it does not. I've sent out some e-mails, if what you say is true I will amend it.

> except in Germany

It applies everywhere. Germany and Poland courts said that they interpret this principle is against their constitutions. The consequence is that they need to either:

- Change their interpretation of their constitution

- Change their constitution

- Leave the EU

It's a basic principle of participation in a Union. Germany's or Poland's case is the same as if a State of the US decided that some federal law or the US constitution doesn't apply in that territory because their constitution prevails or that the state supreme court can overrule the decisions of the US supreme court.

The EU case is much easier than the US, of course, because EU Member States have the right to unilaterally decide to secede. So they can always just leave if they really don't want to comply with EU laws. They have no excuse whatsoever to whine about them.

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#136
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you apply the same standard to BBC? If not, what's the difference?

The difference is, RT is pure, unadulterated, lie. It's government-sponsored infowars. It's under complete control by FSB/KGB and serves exclusively as a platform for launching russian PsyOps.

Source?

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#137
post #126

Regulation: > it is necessary, consistent with the fundamental rights and freedoms recognised in the Charter of Fundamental Rights, in particular with the right to freedom of expression and information as recognised in Article 11 thereof, to introduce further restrictive measures to urgently suspend the broadcasting activities of such media outlets in the Union What. Don't gaslight me with sentences like this in a of…

Censorship does not have to be public. Private companies can and do censor things all the time. They have that right. Freedom of speech is freedom from government censorship, not private censorship.

> "Freedom of speech is freedom from government censorship, not private censorship."

I really detest this line of thought. What good are the concept of human rights when people declare that private companies by definition cannot infringe on them?

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#139
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can you tell?

Because the stories they tell line up (generally) with non-government controlled news media.

You know that goverents frequently distribute their propaganda through media outlets that are not state owned, right?

Re: Does the EU's ban on RT also ban Tor?

#140
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship does not have to be public. Private companies can and do censor things all the time. They have that right. Freedom of speech is freedom from government censorship, not private censorship.

> "Freedom of speech is freedom from government censorship, not private censorship." I really detest this line of thought. What good are the concept of human rights when people declare that private companies by definition cannot infringe on them?

Because your rights end where other peoples' begins, and controlling what a company allows or doesn't allow on its platform is compelled speech, which is unconstitutional in the US. For example, a baker has the right to censor you by not allowing you to order a cake that says "Heil Hitler" on it.
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