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World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

reuters.com

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Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#131

Post by Tomis02 »

deutschewelle wrote: post #56
vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

In case it wasn't obvious the studies and this article is being written by people in the West who do not consume octopus. These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow…

As a European, I think you're wrong on several levels.

> When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow and pigs.

Or like humans! It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that animals are biologically very similar to us and that they're likely sentient and intelligent. As far as I'm concerned, the burden of proof is on anyone claiming otherwise. We share so much biology with animals (this is proven, not conjectured) but you're trying to tell me that somehow it's just humans who are sentient and feel pain? Then prove it.

> Let's just call this article what it is: To reassure non-octopus eaters on their superior moral creed and a license to preach this narrative to people who consume octopus

Doesn't mean they're wrong.

> These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind.

That may be the case sometimes, and their patronising tone irks me as well, but that doesn't mean they're wrong about this topic. Also, they're not the first ones to voice this idea, not by a longshot. So feel free to decouple your annoyance at "the West" (by which I assume you mean the Anglosphere) from what we can assume to be true until proven otherwise (animal sentience).

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#132

Post by asdff »

sweetheart wrote: post #103
asdff wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also grow plants to burn in F150s. OTOH you also cannot convert all the pastoral land into agricultural land. In fact its probably pastoral land in the first place because the land is not that possible to farm on otherwise (e.g. hilly/narrow/rock laden pastures which are quite common across hilly areas like appalachia). The fact is there are good ways to grow animals and plants, and bad ways, and we should just fo…

Kurzgesagt has a great video explaining how grass fed beef isn’t really very viable at all. I suggest you watch it. It came out a couple months ago and talks about this at length. Give it a google.

If its something like its too costly then that's fine too. Let mcDonalds become bean burgers if their pricepoint with the cost of proper grassfed beef doesn't make any sense anymore.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#133

Post by AngryData »

gfody wrote: post #128
AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

can you really compare cows to octopuses? are there even wild cows?

The wild ancestor of cows is extinct, so technically they would all be feral cows, but there are places where feral cows have ran around for a few generations alone that you might consider wild.

However their extensive past breeding still brings into question their actual intelligence and cognitive abilities compared to their wild ancestor, most animals inadvertently are bred to be significantly dumber during domestication because they are the easiest to handle and control.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#134

Post by deutschewelle »

bane wrote: post #119
deutschewelle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case it wasn't obvious the studies and this article is being written by people in the West who do not consume octopus. These articles almost always seem to derive to us-vs-them narrative, the idea that the West is somehow the forefront of moral novelty and the rest of the world is behind. When the irony is that the same random argument applied towards Octopus can be done on just about any sentient beings like cow…

Octopus is a pretty great cooked food, not as a sashimi. In Korean cuisine, at least, you find it stir fried, with noodles, in rice bowls, in soups...all sorts of things. There's several different kinds commonly eaten, from very small bite-sized to ones where a tentacle has to be cut into several bite sized pieces. It's often kept live until cooked, a practice that ensures both freshness and offended Western sensibil…

From your comment one might be inclined to picture that Koreans add it into everything which they do no more or less than other countries that consume it.

You would have to specifically ask for this ingredient at a restaurant and it is only kept alive if it is prepared in a seafood restaurant specifically which they keep them alive and fresh to be consumed usually raw since its a bad idea to consume already dead raw fishes.

I guess what you wrote does a really great job of illustrating the subtle passive aggressive tones often used by journalists in the West to mock or bring their personal stereotype views of the world while virtue signaling, constantly thinking and telling others what a great, upright, outstanding set of moral upbringing you've had, will have as a result of the perceived quality of life you might be experiencing.

Following such mindset I can see why somebody in the West might be construed as uppity and condescending, they are not able to see at all the bubble that they've constructed not through actually perceiving things as they are but how it makes you FEEL informed, intelligent, morally superior being that you believe yourself you are.

Which really leaves to little debate as to what the PURPOSE of these articles are: They are specifically brought to light to make the reader believe they are morally upright descent human beings that the rest of the world simply isn't.

THE question to ask here is why is the population constantly subject to such reminders through mass media and why is there so much deliberate and urgency that can't be found in other parts of the world?

Does it strike you that what we lack is probably what we are taught to believe as it would not fit with the reality that has been constructed in this country?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#135

Post by rectang »

nefitty wrote: post #112
deutschewelle wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's similar to a lot of the ideological absurdities being unleashed by the political establishment in the West. Some of which are supported wholeheartedly by companies supported by YC so rather than risk getting banned for holding "dangerous" ideologies that run counter to that side of the spectrum, I will just chalk this under ephemeral arguments that will go nowhere edit: as suspected it seems I am no longer able…

It's not a novel idea. Isn't it just a fatalistic coloring of ethical relativism? I personally subscribe to the idea that moral truths can be discovered from principals we can derive on inspecting our own preferences and experiences. We can than radiate that practice out to uncover more, and it historically happens by dint of physical/genetic proximity, eg prioritizing the wellbeing of family and friends and so on. A…

> Isn't it just a fatalistic coloring of ethical relativism?

To me, "the universe is indifferent" is ethical relativism but not at all fatalistic. If there is no deliberate outside guidance, then we are free to construct an ethics by "inspecting our own preferences and experiences", as you put it. Isn't that liberating and wonderful? Doesn't it allow for creativity and constant rejuvenation?

However, I distrust your labeling of those discoveries as "moral truths". Is there one objectively correct philosophy of octopus farming?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#136

Post by asdff »

sweetheart wrote: post #108
asdff wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its been distributed here, prepped, and offered for sale, I might as well eat it since its there anyhow. Better conditions for animals will come from legislation and not consumer choices.

You don’t think individuals collective buying habits influence macro trends in supply?

I think when it comes to meat its more of a tragedy of the commons issue, and the most effective way to get something done is to encourage my representatives to support legislation that helps these animals versus holding my breath and waiting for the world to wake up and choose logic. Keep in mind this is a society that have many who, when shown that smoking causes lung cancer, continues to smoke. After COVID and seeing the worldwide idiot brigade come out of the woodwork from that, I'm even more cynical, and more certain that there are just too many idiots on this planet to just expect consumers to one day wise up and start doing things differently.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#137

Post by adamweld »

AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

Octos aren't social creatures.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#138

Post by bmitc »

sweetheart wrote: post #83
bmitc wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you can invent life that doesn't require the consumption of other life, we're stuck with what we have. As far as I understand, humans have always eaten meat, including before fire was discovered. There's a certain biological component for being omnivores. Second, I am human too, you know. I'm made up of the same bullshit everyone else is. However, at least I try to question what I do and try and stop things, a…

The original comment was in reference to animals specifically, not just life, so saying we need to eat life to survive and therefor must eat animals is incoherent. Also, for how long humans have eaten meat is totally irrelevant: doing something for a long time does not justify it. Human beings don’t require animal products to thrive, period, so those that eat them anyway engage in unnecessary cruelty against other se…

> Human beings don’t require animal products to thrive, period

As much as I am in favor of reducing meat consumption of all kinds, is this an accepted fact?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#139

Post by Buttons840 »

vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

> It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings

My mom has always had this ability. We had some horses in a pasture behind our house, and one day we noticed most of the horses had been removed and only one remained. My mom could instantly tell that the one remaining horse, named Pete, was sad to be alone. "Pete is so sad, she's all alone" my mom observed while we were looking out the window. Literally, not 5 seconds later, a couple of horses came walking out from behind a shed in the pasture. I laughed and teased my mom. I guess Pete wasn't as sad and alone as she thought.

In other words, how do you know you're perceiving the feelings of animals correctly?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#140

Post by [deleted] »

deutschewelle wrote: post #125
friedturkey wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's with your backhanded comments lol People have been getting informed through documentaries for decades. People have been getting informed through books for millennia. People have been sharing experiences through discussion before recorded history. People share knowledge through countless mediums and that's how we learn and grow. Saying this is dystopian is goofy and makes no sense. Chill out, lad.

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