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Laravel 9

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Re: Laravel 9

#131

Post by agumonkey »

PZ81JUXJE7uJ wrote: post #14
geenat wrote: post #10

Laravel and Drupal 7+ frankly ruined PHP for me. PHP as a platform is KISS and elegant, and I still admire some of its features such as built in templating, filesystem based routing, etc. But whenever I look back at Laravel, I remember how dangerous overly complex fluff with a nice logo is to a platform.

Funny, all I remember is the hot mess everyone was producing before Laravel.

beside legacy cobol, wordpress plugins were the most horrendous code i've ever seen. dead code I should say since quite often half of it was left commented in the official running source.

Re: Laravel 9

#132

Post by jstummbillig »

All else being equal, how do we feel about Rails 7 vs Laravel 9 in 2022? Giving the breadth of both frameworks I am pretty certain there has to be one objectively better choice. Which one is it? Why?

Re: Laravel 9

#133

Post by porker »

henry700 wrote: post #55
TimWolla wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my experience with Laravel as well. Laravel looks great on the surface for a simple CRUD application, but once you need to do something non-trivial with it, you need to start fighting the framework. Also I dislike the large amount of magic happening within the framework. I want to understand what the code is doing, so that I can properly debug it in an emergency. As a specific example I needed to override hal…

Exactly this for the exact same reasons, only more specific to the Eloquent ORM instead. God forbid you need to do nested-nested-nested relationships or something relatively complex. Laravel works VERY well for the simple cases, but all the weak typing, reflection and runtime searches that it uses just makes every runtime framework problem a pain in the ass to debug. I'll stick to Spring Boot or ASP.NET Core any day.

It sounds like Doctrine https://www.doctrine-project.org/ is what you need if you want an ORM to handle relatively complex stuff. It's the default in Symfony projects and I don't know if there's a Laravel integration.

ASP.NET Core is nice mind; if you have the choice... :)

Re: Laravel 9

#134

Post by XCSme »

unfocussed_mike wrote: post #124
XCSme wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that writing secure PHP code is hard, but using a framework like Laravel, even if it has a single point of entry, makes it a lot more likely to introduce more security issues. When a framework is popular and open-source, people will spend a lot more resources trying to find and exploit vulnerabilities than in a custom private codebase: https://snyk.io/vuln/composer:laravel%2Fframework

I can see your point. But at the same time, I have never seen a project built along the lines you discussed that has not collapsed under the pressure for expedience, and it's just as vulnerable to issues in libraries (which any project of any complexity will use).

I think the biggest question to ask is how big the project is.

Wikipedia, Facebook, Etsy and other huge platform are written in PHP, but I doubt they use a framework like Laravel and not some in-house built platform.

Very tiny projects probably need no framework.

That leaves medium-sized projects, but again, it's hard to define what "size" means. I think a project is bigger if it implements various functionalities instead of having hundreds of different files that do a similar thing.

I can see Laravel being used more by out-sourcing companies. Custom frameworks or no framework being used more by companies building their own product.

Re: Laravel 9

#135

Post by hhda »

munk-a wrote: post #116
tnorthcutt wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW that hasn't been my experience at all. The documentation is great and well maintained. The repo is public and you can see all changes here: https://github.com/laravel/docs

I made this decision about four years ago and while the documentation was well maintained at the time I was concerned that the Laracasts would be unmaintained and become a source of confusion that talked about no longer present features. I was mostly afraid about the primary problem with over-documentation: you're introducing a maintenance cost which, if you ever stop paying, ends up quickly causing more harm than ne…

Laravel 9 was released today (hence this thread) - Laravel 8 is the major version that came out directly before Laravel 9. Further, Laravel 9 is essentially Laravel 8 with a bump to the dependencies, with most higher impact changes coming as a result of those dependencies being updated[1]. The Laravel 8 From Scratch series has videos as recently as August[2], with the What's New in Laravel 9 series already having 11 videos[3], with the most recent posted yesterday. The Laracasts video series are still very much actively updated (with Jeffrey, who runs it adding new teachers in the last year).

And Laracasts is a 3rd party learning resource anyway, with the first party docs all being well maintained.

1. https://laravel.com/docs/9.x/upgrade

2. https://laracasts.com/series/laravel-8-from-scratch/episodes...

3. https://laracasts.com/series/whats-new-in-laravel-9

Re: Laravel 9

#136

Post by 0des »

jordanmorgan10 wrote: post #73

I met Taylor a few years ago at a conference we were both speaking at. Coming from the iOS world, I had no idea who he was. "So, what do you work with?" "PHP mainly", he said. I replied "That sucks, sorry man." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What was his response?

Re: Laravel 9

#137

Post by e12e »

jstummbillig wrote: post #132

All else being equal, how do we feel about Rails 7 vs Laravel 9 in 2022? Giving the breadth of both frameworks I am pretty certain there has to be one objectively better choice. Which one is it? Why?

I don't think either is objectivly better - if for no other reason than ruby and php being quite different languages.

Personally I much prefer ruby - but I could perhaps see myself reaching for Laravel for a project depending on requirements.

Re: Laravel 9

#138

Post by e12e »

Darmody wrote: post #2

I've been programming in PHP for around 5 years. I've used vanilla PHP, full featured MVC frameworks, micro frameworks and I've been working with Laravel for around 2 weeks. Worst experience ever. The more I dig into it the more I hate it.

Please tell us why?

Re: Laravel 9

#139

Post by jonwinstanley »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #70

Personally, I liked Laravel when I was first investigating it years ago, but was always a touch put off by the pervasive "I am beautiful, adore me" undercurrent throughout its design, documentation, and even comments. I'll be the first to admit that's not a rational critique. Having said that, though, Laravel is relatively unusual among major frameworks in that it doesn't seem to have been developed in tandem with a…

Disagree mostly. I’ve never paid for any of the paid modules and continue to use Laravel on a daily basis.

I do feel the docs are a little minimal at times, maybe to make them prettier? Could definitely benefit from a little more explanation in places.

Re: Laravel 9

#140

Post by jonwinstanley »

pluc wrote: post #60
jackconsidine wrote: post #30

For those here wondering why you'd use Laravel over vanilla PHP + MySQL + PDO, a few of my clients had this opinion so I've had experience. The Laravel "fluff" saves you from rewriting tons of code, helps you write test cases, and makes logic easy to follow. One of my clients was very anti "needless vendor packages" (definitely some truth to this sentiment), but we ended up with 14 extra php files reinventing the whe…

The concept of frameworks in PHP predates its package manager and its PSR standards. Nowadays you can easily slap a collection of libraries together to create your own micro-framework that fulfills your precise needs. That is often a better decision than to go with a monster like Laravel or Symfony which by design aims to be good at all the things, instead of good at the things you need. Those frameworks themselves u…

If you’re pulling libraries instead of using a framework, you’re basically just writing your own framework. One that’s simpler but also it’s unique so you lose the ability to bring in a seasoned Laravel dev that can get going right away. You have introduced a learning curve for all new devs that didn’t need to be there.
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