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Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

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Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#131

From the last discussion: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... The BMJ is not the shining city on the hill here. You can have problems with Facebook policing information, but Thacker is unquestionably an anti-vax conspiracy theorist and the BMJ is allowing him to use their reputation to push that narrative.

Science Based Medicine isn't exactly squeaky clean either:

https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/science-based-medicines-c...

Now, someone post a takedown of Singal so we can keep the chain going ...

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#132

I'm an absolute enemy of both "fact checking" and corporate regulation of speech, in coordination with government, on forums as large and general as Facebook. That being said, this supporter of the Facebook action, who is well qualified to speak, offers very good arguments that this was not science but instead guest editorial by a regular woo/conspiracy pitcher, and another specific indictment of recent BMJ editorial…

I don't think a blogpost full of empty vitriolic arguments is the best rebuttal proving "the content was shit". It just shows this particular blogger had some axe to grind and cannot be taken seriously.

My understanding of the issue is that the content itself was "not shit", but the timing and context in which it was likely to be perceived at the very least, associated it with less palatable implications, which may or may not hold, and are typically borne by counterproductive groups. And there was some evidence that indeed this was how the article was perceived by such groups.

But the article itself, in a completely epistemic sense, was "not shit" at all. It was actually very insightful for anyone interested in the context of the actual science involved.

So this is not as black and white as you suggest, imho, and even if it were in this particular case, the broader issue raised is still important:

If you do science A which is useful for good thing B, but has the potential to be falsely interpreted as bad thing C by bad group D, should we expect an overreaching group E to shadowban/discredit A?

I say no. I would much rather have a proper discussion instead.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ripping off business ideas is an aspect of competition (BK versus McDonalds), not sure it is related to morals…

Sorry, what? If I share an mp3 the record industry demands ridiculous compensation. If I steal a paragraph in a college exam and get caught, I'm sent home without credit or refund. If I sell a drawing of a certain cartoon mouse, or draw a red shirt on Pooh, I can literally go to jail. ... But if I invest my life savings to start a company based on an insightful idea and read of the market, a trillion dollar company c…

> If I share an mp3 the record industry demands ridiculous compensation.

If you look at the success of Britney Spears and spawn an entire market of popstar clones, though, that's entirely legal.

That's essentially what Facebook did to Snapchat.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#134
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What really bugs me here is, everyone yells at facebook, saying it is spreading propaganda, lies, societal harm, etc. Then, fact checking is attempted, and people claim censorship, an imperfect job, and the idea that "How dare they!" I literally loath, hate, and despise facebook. But come on, they're only doing this because everyone piled on them, claiming they must fact check and validate things. If I was facebook,…

They should indeed just ignore them, free speech wasn't arrived at as an optimal path by accident. Nothing changed to make it not-optimal. People need to adapt to not believing every stupid thing they read on the internet and actually thinking critically about things. The information streams of the world should not be tailored to the critical thinking ability of complete morons. It blows my mind we went from "trying…

Trump happened

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#135
On some level, this is the strongest argument in favor of Facebook's original position - that they oughtn't be responsible for distinguishing fact from fiction. Ask any entity to discern truth at scale and there will be errors and vociferous debates.

So, what's preferable? Unfettered venom and lies mixed with the best attempts at rationality or the discourse moderated by unseen arbiters and algorithms?

Ideally, there would be multiple forums. But given how technology scales and how network effects operate, we'd likely wind up with a few enormous entities.

Thus, I refer back to the choice above. Which will it be?

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#136
post #131

From the last discussion: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/what-the-heck-happened-to-t... The BMJ is not the shining city on the hill here. You can have problems with Facebook policing information, but Thacker is unquestionably an anti-vax conspiracy theorist and the BMJ is allowing him to use their reputation to push that narrative.

Science Based Medicine isn't exactly squeaky clean either: https://jessesingal.substack.com/p/science-based-medicines-c... Now, someone post a takedown of Singal so we can keep the chain going ...

If the BMJ issued a retraction and explanation in the same way that SBM did over that review we wouldn't be having this discussion. Hell if the BMJ didn't actively protest the fact checker's representation of the article as "missing context" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Publishing missteps are inevitable. The BMJ is claiming authorial supremacy above its critics, that's the root of the controversy.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#137
post #128

The entire idea of "fact checking" on social media is premised on the notion that fact checkers have some kind of superior epistemic merit compared to the checkees. When you're fact checking random people or journalists that may or may not be true, but why does Zucc think facebook's checkers are superior to the BMJ? What are the fact checker's credentials, and most importantly what is their track record? The extreme…

Fact checking is better referred to as "authority enforcement" or "mainstream validation". Here's how you know the fact checkers are actually propagandists: you can't find their name or their credentials, or who they work for/paid them.

It might be true for the fact checking groups described here, but to state that as a general case is incorrect.

> Fact checking is better referred to as "authority enforcement" or "mainstream validation".

Fact checking at its core is about analysing assertions that can be objectively verified.

Fact checking must bring forth strong references/sources or proofs to either go in or against the initial assertions.

> Here's how you know the fact checkers are actually propagandists: you can't find their name or their credentials, or who they work for/paid them.

If a fact checker does not provide this kind of info, then yes, it does not seem very trustworthy. Although you could still evaluate them based on the sources they are using for their fact checking.

But, obviously, it does not have to be the case. Fact checkers can and will provide info about their funding, affiliations, composition, etc...

As an example, you can take a look at the FAQ of this fact checker that was active during the French presidential election of 2017 https://crosscheck.firstdraftnews.org/france-en/faq/ :

As you can see, they clearly state that they received funds from Google News to set things up. They also share details about their partners, members, etc.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should indeed just ignore them, free speech wasn't arrived at as an optimal path by accident. Nothing changed to make it not-optimal. People need to adapt to not believing every stupid thing they read on the internet and actually thinking critically about things. The information streams of the world should not be tailored to the critical thinking ability of complete morons. It blows my mind we went from "trying…

Trump happened

The censorship was well underway before Trump, at best it accelerated it.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ripping off business ideas is an aspect of competition (BK versus McDonalds), not sure it is related to morals…

Oh come on. There's a limit to being pedantic

Strictly speaking, there isn't.

Re: Facebook versus The BMJ: when fact checking goes wrong

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Peter Daszak drafted the Lancet letter which was published in February 2020 it pretty much shut down any open discussion of origins. "It's of natural origin, or you're a conspiracy theorist". It took the Lancet 16 months(!) to publish a conflict of interest statement revealing that Daszak was linked to the Wuhan Institute of Virology via EcoHealth Alliance.

Facebook HIRED Peter Daszak as a 'factchecker' and allowed him to REMOVE anything that suggested the virus came from a lab. As somebody who probably incited/funded/created covid19, he was heavily incentivized to hide this crime. Facebook ENABLED this coverup

> As somebody who probably incited/funded/created covid19, he was heavily incentivized to hide this crime.

> Facebook ENABLED this coverup.

Wat? How is this not considered a conspiracy theory? 5 comments down an article that discusses fact checking...

Hm, maybe my sarcasm-meter is off by a notch again. dunno.

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