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How to quit like a boss

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Re: How to quit like a boss

#131

Post by heavyset_go »

delgaudm wrote: post #76
oramit wrote: post #65

This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. At my last job though I spent more than a year saying repeatedly that I wasn't happy with my project work and that I wanted more pay. Annual review rolls around and they didn't fix it. I had a new job offer in a month and when I put in my notice…

Could not agree more. The company is not, can not, and will not ever be loyal to you. Ever. They will fire you, lay you off, relieve you of duty instantly for any reason or no reason at all. They've lobbied for laws to do exactly that (in the US anyway). And they will keep information asymmetrical in their favor. No. Matter. What. In the long run they will be dishonest with you, they will lie to your face, and they w…

> You have no obligation to be honest in an exit interview

Also, you have no obligation to give former employers free insights and advice that they'd otherwise have to pay consultants thousands of dollars to figure out for them. That's what your feedback in an exit interview can be: free insights they'd otherwise have to pay for. There's no reason to give it to them for free.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#132

Post by hn_go_brrrrr »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #129
oramit wrote: post #65

This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. At my last job though I spent more than a year saying repeatedly that I wasn't happy with my project work and that I wanted more pay. Annual review rolls around and they didn't fix it. I had a new job offer in a month and when I put in my notice…

> been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. How often do you fellow HNers disagree with management? Is it that common? I think it's probably the worst part of "working for a living".

I disagree with my manager (and other managers in the org) all the time. It's fine, we talk about the tradeoffs involved and figure out the best path forward.

Every time I hear people worried about disagreeing with management, it's because management are assholes. The managers I work with are good people. They're not perfect, but I do (mostly) trust their competency.

I'm also senior enough people can't push me around.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#133

Post by tweetle_beetle »

billyhoffman wrote: post #22

Reasonable (though fairly hackneyed) advice. Until I get to this: > I let my boss know I was leaving in February, so my commitment to see things through to the end of the year was effectively a 10-month notice period. This, ironically, was the first sentence in a section entitled "Avoid giving too much notice" If you can't handoff your work in less than 2 weeks, either you as an employee have failed to properly docum…

The author freely admits a 10 month handover was counter productive. But equally 2 weeks is not appropriate for many roles, especially in smaller companies, or where you may be the only employee with a specialist skill.

It sounds like it may be more of a north american phenomenon to walk out of jobs at your own discretion(?). In my experience, people in the UK are observant of contractual notice periods and 3 months is not unusual for someone in a senior position.

It's become a bit of a nonsensical arms race to tie people down to longer and longer notice periods to make it easier to bring someone in who hopefully has a shorter notice period for a convenient handover.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#134

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

avidiax wrote: post #103
delgaudm wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could not agree more. The company is not, can not, and will not ever be loyal to you. Ever. They will fire you, lay you off, relieve you of duty instantly for any reason or no reason at all. They've lobbied for laws to do exactly that (in the US anyway). And they will keep information asymmetrical in their favor. No. Matter. What. In the long run they will be dishonest with you, they will lie to your face, and they w…

There are people that will dismiss this as overly cynical because of the presentation. But it is true. In a big company, the VP of whatever department may feel bad about a layoff before Christmas, but they don't know you personally, and whatever numbers or major investors are motivating this don't lie. In a small company, the same is true. They might wait until things are hopeless instead of trending to hopeless, but…

Agreed with everything you and OP wrote until your very last line:

“ If your company needs you beyond that, contract billing should start at 5x your salaried rate, 20 hour minimum.”

Now that’s being a dick. Looking out for yourself does not mean being a dick.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#136

Post by lmm »

jamesbrady wrote: post #93
BeetleB wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah, no – this is in the "Don’t sabotage, it’s a dick move" section: it's sabotage which is unethical. I guess the source of the confusion is that you didn't specify what the sabotage actually is. I mean, deleting all your code before leaving is sabotage. Leaving without notice isn't. What did you have in mind when you wrote that? > I don't quite follow this paragraph, could you rephrase? I was highlighting a bunch…

> I guess the source of the confusion is that you didn't specify what the sabotage actually is Ah ha, I see – yes I had in mind actively doing stuff to undermine the team after the person has left (on the benign end, deliberately doing a crappy job of documentation; on the malignant end, stuff like data destruction). I will make this clearer in the post, thanks! > - The notion that you should have loyalty to the team…

I've been in a team that I wanted to be loyal to. I'm actually still friends with some of my former teammates from there. It was a great job right up until the point where they laid off as many people as legally possible and lied about the reasons.

It might be different for an employee-owned cooperative, but if you're working for a corporation, loyalty is a bad tradeoff even if you like your team. The risk/reward of things like being honest with your manager about what isn't working just isn't there (and you'd be surprised - or maybe you wouldn't - how quickly a seemingly friendly manager can decide to act like a total dickhead, and there's nothing you can do about it if they do).

Re: How to quit like a boss

#137

Post by krab »

oramit wrote: post #65

This post is filled with bad and naive advice. I have thankfully worked in mostly rational companies and been able to be honest with managers about what is or isn't working. At my last job though I spent more than a year saying repeatedly that I wasn't happy with my project work and that I wanted more pay. Annual review rolls around and they didn't fix it. I had a new job offer in a month and when I put in my notice…

In some parts of Europe (Czechia specifically but I heard it worked similarly in other countries), the standard is two full calendar months, so usually about ten weeks. Some candidates request three months and the employer usually can wait.

Because the previous employer will also have to wait for a new hire, he will not want to let you out much sooner. It works the other way round as well. The employer can't fire you with a shorter notice period, unless there was some criminal behavior.

Re: How to quit like a boss

#138

Post by chottocharaii »

TedDoesntTalk wrote: post #134
avidiax wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people that will dismiss this as overly cynical because of the presentation. But it is true. In a big company, the VP of whatever department may feel bad about a layoff before Christmas, but they don't know you personally, and whatever numbers or major investors are motivating this don't lie. In a small company, the same is true. They might wait until things are hopeless instead of trending to hopeless, but…

Agreed with everything you and OP wrote until your very last line: “ If your company needs you beyond that, contract billing should start at 5x your salaried rate, 20 hour minimum.” Now that’s being a dick. Looking out for yourself does not mean being a dick.

Hey, if they’re willing to pay that much for it; charging any less is charity

Re: How to quit like a boss

#139

Post by weego »

jamesbrady wrote: post #93
BeetleB wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah, no – this is in the "Don’t sabotage, it’s a dick move" section: it's sabotage which is unethical. I guess the source of the confusion is that you didn't specify what the sabotage actually is. I mean, deleting all your code before leaving is sabotage. Leaving without notice isn't. What did you have in mind when you wrote that? > I don't quite follow this paragraph, could you rephrase? I was highlighting a bunch…

> I guess the source of the confusion is that you didn't specify what the sabotage actually is Ah ha, I see – yes I had in mind actively doing stuff to undermine the team after the person has left (on the benign end, deliberately doing a crappy job of documentation; on the malignant end, stuff like data destruction). I will make this clearer in the post, thanks! > - The notion that you should have loyalty to the team…

Wanting to be loyal to a team is a fools errand. It's the embodiment of having been successfully indoctrinated into the 'work as life & family' culture. I went through 20 years of that because it's my nature. Without a doubt it has been to the detriment of my career and personal life. Stayed on too long at dead-end jobs where I was the parent in the room; Stayed on too long at jobs that underpaid and leveraged my loyalty to add responsibility without recompense; Worked far too many hours a week for no actual reward other than praise.

Managers preach this because they want to make their problems yours as an employee. I know this because I've done it too and will probably do it again at some point.

Loyalty is not a one way street, but being an employee always is, there are no exceptions. Employment is having Damocles sword hanging over you and it's foolish to think otherwise.

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