A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet • Hacker News Board

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#131

Post by bullen » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

ThePhysicist wrote: post #124

bullen wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have been trying to sabotage it for two decades, they can't because it is distributed. Just like HTTP/1.1 can't be deprecated because too much infrastructure depends on it. These protocols are simple and as complexity fails we all need to go back to them!

But HTTP is client/server whereas e-mail is server/server (or client/server/server/client). Small independent server operators are at the mercy of the large companies as those can just stop processing their e-mails (which they already often do). That's different for HTTP (though gatekeeping happens there too via discoverability and other mechanisms).

Both HTTP and SMTP are client/server because you cannot read SMTP without a "client"... The crucial part of these protocols are simple text that use DNS for distributing the connecting.

HTTP can be used for server to server too... and I recommend it.

So to repeat you need to implement HTTP, SMTP and DNS in you server software so that you can self host all 3 on your own hardware.

This means asking your fiber ISP to open all ports (25, 53, 80) and give you a static IP!

DNS is centralized for now... but eventually it wont be.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#132

Post by nunez » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

I don’t think email is as decentralized and federated as it used to be.

In theory, email is a service that is simple enough for anyone to run themselves. Most Linux distros come with sendmail, so theoretically it should be as easy as reading the manual and exposing some ports. Spam is performed server side both at the origin and at the destination to mitigate bad actors, and because email is simple, there should be no shortage of clients to choose from.

In reality, 1/4 of all email users globally are on Gmail. Apple Mail is the most popular mail client followed by Outlook, then Gmail. SMTP and IMAP are theoretically simple, but the bellwether providers use APIs on top of these protocols that have added some functionality at the expense of restricting the proliferation of email clients. Many large companies that used to run their own email (through Exchange, Zimbra, etc) are moving to hosted Office 365 or Google Workspace. One major AWS-scale outage in Gmail or Azure will incite (and has caused) serious panic and disruption (which is great for SREs like me since we’ll continue to get paid serious money to keep all this stuff running while maintaining a healthy work-life balance, but I digress).

Furthermore, one doesn’t simply “stand up” their own email server unless they don’t care about landing in people’s spam folders.

Additionally, many companies outside of the US _do_ use WhatsApp (Facebook) for official communication. I’d posit that this trend is only accelerating.

I agree that email is fundamental technology, but I can see a future where it disappears in favor of something like federated Slack (or, worse, instant messaging centralized and controlled by the FAANG cabal with insurmountable cost-of-entry). Given the suppression of “free speech” on Twitter et al during peak COVID/peak insurrection (for valid reasons), this is slightly worrying.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#133

Post by cblconfederate » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #36

I really hope that we end up moving back towards supporting open protocols. I was heartened (and a little surprised) that Jack Dorsey recently mentioned that the draconian control of the Twitter API was the worst thing Twitter had done [1]. The corporatisation of the Internet, has undone a lot of the great work that had traditionally underpinned the network. It feels like the slow, laborious and fundamentally equitab…

ways to monetize "open" are missing

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#134

Post by JohnWhigham » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

feldrim wrote: post #40

Well, in Estonia, they have a different approach. 1. If you are a citizen or a resident, you get an ID card to use for every public service. It's just a smart card with a government PKI. 2. The public services provide an email account that can only be used within the e-government services. The card is used for accessing those services. 3. The email service accepts either identity number or registry number of the reci…

I could only wish the US had something like that. Very few Congresspeople could even succinctly describe email to you, let alone express the need for a system like this. And even if they could introduce a bill, Big Tech lobbyists would instantly swoop in and proclaim the idea as a threat to national democracy, and instead try to steer the legislator to just hosting entire thing on their platform instead. I fucking hate our federal government.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#135

Post by rakoo » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

Demcox wrote: post #41

high_5 wrote: post #10

> There are a huge variety of intra-organizational communication systems, to the point where pretty much every large enterprise provider seems to have one (Slack, Microsoft Teams, Discord, etc etc). That's why I find Delta Chat piggybacking on Push-IMAP such an interesting concept: https://delta.chat

I like the idea alot. Too bad the app thorws errors left and right with Gmail and Live making it unuseable to me...

The only issue I've had in my limited use is that a Deltachat email triggers a notification on the desktop before it is moved to a Deltachat-specific folder. The solution is to configure Sieve filters to do this upon reception, but just saying that we've lost all 99% of potential users

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#136

Post by Sebb767 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #119

wholinator2 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, though I've always had this thought: How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase. I mean, could they not transfer physical money as easily as they transfer words and secret deals. Golf courses are huge, golf carts can have large compartments and be loaded up directly from a car. I know the thought is, "well why would they do that, surely there's an easier alternative", but my point is that it…

> How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase One of the problems is that some of these checks can only be performed much later. The most common currency of choice, for modern bribes, is the promise of a fat gig in the private sector when the political career ends. As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries, while maintaining an appetite for career-endi…

> As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries

Looking into the US senate, I fail to see that trend. In the last presidential election, both candidates were older than my grandparents.

Even in my country, seeing a really young person in a political position is very rare. They exist (if you define "young" as under 40), but they are rare. I don't think age worries are a factor at all.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#137

Post by JohnWhigham » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #36

I really hope that we end up moving back towards supporting open protocols. I was heartened (and a little surprised) that Jack Dorsey recently mentioned that the draconian control of the Twitter API was the worst thing Twitter had done [1]. The corporatisation of the Internet, has undone a lot of the great work that had traditionally underpinned the network. It feels like the slow, laborious and fundamentally equitab…

I was heartened (and a little surprised) that Jack Dorsey recently mentioned that the draconian control of the Twitter API was the worst thing Twitter had done [1].

I wasn't, because he didn't do jack shit to change it. We hear this bullshit all the time; big actors sound off about what was wrong at their previous places, but rarely did they do anything to upset the apple cart.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#138

Post by mbg721 » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

Sebb767 wrote: post #136

toyg wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do we know it's not money in a brown paper bag/briefcase One of the problems is that some of these checks can only be performed much later. The most common currency of choice, for modern bribes, is the promise of a fat gig in the private sector when the political career ends. As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries, while maintaining an appetite for career-endi…

> As the public demands younger and younger political classes, with lower and lower salaries Looking into the US senate, I fail to see that trend. In the last presidential election, both candidates were older than my grandparents. Even in my country, seeing a really young person in a political position is very rare. They exist (if you define "young" as under 40), but they are rare. I don't think age worries are a fac…

In the US there's a huge disconnect between national and local political positions; the national politicians are largely 80 years old and have enough muscle from their party structure and the media to be essentially scandal-proof. The voters don't like that but can't really fix it; local politicians, who are younger, see the big-time corruption in Washington and assume that's how things get done, and all of a sudden you have things like a majority of Cincinnati city council being investigated by the FBI.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#139

Post by adolph » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #7

causi wrote: post #2

Email is our only reliable communication method between different organizations. I'm still of the opinion there should be public-option internet services. Everyone deserves an e-mail address that cannot be taken away from them without a court order.

Hopefully this citizens email also comes with severe rules for commercial mail or else it'll soon be flooded with junk.

Just like how the highly regulated phone system dealt with voice and SMS spam.

Re: A realization of why email is critical infrastructure for the Internet

#140

Post by rakoo » Wed, Dec 29, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

cpach wrote: post #28

zekica wrote: post #15

The biggest blunder for me is that there were usable decentralized communication options before that were popular, but because of trying to monetize user's data FAANG started to tighten their grip on any decentralized solution, and I think they succeeded. They are already trying do to email the same thing they did to XMPP and RSS.

I’m not convinced that XMPP is actually such a great protocol. (I used it for many years.)

I often swing between longing for a federated protocol that can be managed by technical people and used by everyone, like XMPP, and something more P2P to reduce centralization and allow everyone to instantly "open an account" with no need for technical skills, but that still needs some kind of relays for asynchronous communication, like ssb. None are technically perfect (although I really like the simplicity and extensibility of XMPP) but in the end what matters is not that: it's about how the protocols are used, how they allow all of us to communicate, how they give more power to those who aren't already using the internet to exchange information. And that is not a technical problem