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Systemd 250 Released

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Re: Systemd 250 Released

#131

Post by bayindirh »

1_player wrote: post #119
bayindirh wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

systemd had way more bugs and crinkles for an init system when it first started, and an init system is critical software .

Everything is buggy the newer it is, your point being? Linux itself was mostly unusable when it first started. And a kernel is even more important.

> Everything is buggy the newer it is, your point being?

There's a distinction between labeling it as a hobby project and something ready for production.

Linux started as a hobby OS, and being buggy is OK in that regard.

systemd is way more buggy than it should when it's deemed production ready. This is my point.

I'm using Linux for a long time, and I know the meanings of unstable, buggy and experimental; as well as production ready.

I don't hate or I'm not against systemd, I'm against the attitude behind it.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#132

Post by starklevnertz »

lmm wrote: post #34
starklevnertz wrote: post #9

I just want to pre-empt the inevitable bitching about systemd to say I think it’s awesome and incredibly useful and consistent and powerful and I’d take it any day over the mess of stuff that filled systemd’s duties before. Sure it isn’t perfect, but what software is? And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If it was truly crap then surely the distro builders would use the a…

> And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If it was truly crap then surely the distro builders would use the alternative? Because it's tightly coupled to everything (particularly to the few profitable parts of linux - most open-source is maintained on a shoestring, so it's pretty cheap to take control over development of even vital low-level infrastructure). This is how syst…

But no systemd distro is saying “we want to dump systemd but we can’t because it’s too tightly Coupled” are they?

Or maybe the maintainers are I don’t know do you have links to show this is the case?

Systemd is used by all major linux flavors because it’s the best solution for the problems it solves.

The distro maintainers are too smart to be stuck with systemd against their will.

And it’s linux …. make a better solution, if it’s truly better it’ll be used.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#133

Post by rakoo »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #36
teleforce wrote: post #17

This week I have just learned that systemd has an alternative scheduler in addition to cron. At this rate systemd will probably become another new OS on top of Linux similar to Android.

You mean systemd timers? https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Systemd/Timers They were always there, and they work much better than cron in my experience (you're not forced to use cron expressions because it supports things like human-readable time formats; they can randomize startup times, which is useful for backups; they can put additional constraints (like "start only if network is available"); and they can actually…

Another one that can't be done easily with cron: when your system boots and an execution was missed, systemd timers can be told to run it

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#134

Post by diffeomorphism »

Mikhail_K wrote: post #111
pverghese wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe you should questions yourself as to why you are so angry about what others like

If others enjoy eating garbage, does that obligate me to like it, too?

Yes, pretty much so. If there is a dish everybody likes but you say it is "garbage" then you are just wrong and an arrogant snob.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#135

Post by captainmuon »

1_player wrote: post #116
captainmuon wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Systemd by itself is alright, the problem for me is the larger movement from "Linux is about choice" to tightly integrated, opinionated tools. Examples: - Gnome started to depend on systemd features. Now non-systemd systems become second class citizens. - You used to be able to freely swap out window managers, taskbars, and so on, because everything was working with common standards. In the modern world, everything i…

Linux has never been about choice. There was choice because no two people could agree on a set of protocols and standards. And slowly we're converging on a small set of decent (not perfect!) ideas volunteers can focus their efforts on. I honestly hope the choice meme dies because it is so toxic. My Linux workstation and servers are not something I want to tinker with, I want solidity and stability and a fragmented us…

"linux" (as in: Unixoid distributions for desktop systems) has always been about choice. Debian's update-alternatives, the whole FreeDesktop project, ICCCM standards. The theming community, gnome-look.org, kde-look.org, and so on.

If I want the stabilty and flexibility of Linux (the kernel) and the GNU command line tools, and the flexibility to choose a UX paradigm that I prefer and visuals that I like, I go to desktop Linux. In that sense, choice is the USP of linux (linux as in: desktop distribution). If I loose the flexibilty, I go back to Windows or Mac. Opinionated ("not fragmented") systems like Gnome only work if you're fully on board with their choices. If not, then there is really no benefit for me over just sticking with windows.

Now, on a server the situation is of course different, and stability is paramount. I like for example that services are declarative and not imperative in systemd. But on a desktop, I don't really care.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#136

Post by diffeomorphism »

fsflover wrote: post #128
3np wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t follow how a new startup/system management architecture makes it “not UNIX”. We do put OS X in the UNIX column, after all. POSIX and all that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface. AFAIK none of these describes systemd.

That seems to describe systemd extremely well. Lots of little tools like networkd, homed, journald... that do one thing, do it well and work together. And using text+time stamps.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#137

Post by OJFord »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #134
Mikhail_K wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If others enjoy eating garbage, does that obligate me to like it, too?

Yes, pretty much so. If there is a dish everybody likes but you say it is "garbage" then you are just wrong and an arrogant snob.

A 'Big Mac' is objectively not nutritious, and cheap meat though.

I like systemd.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#138

Post by p_l »

pverghese wrote: post #96
raverbashing wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like replace a working system with a more unreliable one with stability problems (and prioritize more features instead of fixing it) and more resource usage, then push for its adoption, then complain when you get hate. Now yes, it gives you more functionality, but it was a pain until it got there. Systemd was just Pulseaudio all over again (except now in init, so if it breaks your whole system can't boot). Now,…

There is no reason to be so dramatic. In the end you are free to use any init system you want.

I was happy ignoring systemd (and no, not depending on broken debian/redhat rc.d scripts) till my distro gave update that due to GNOME 3.8 they are forced to switch everything to systemd instead of keeping it optional like before.

It became a question of "are you going to have GNOME 3.8 or later, or not"

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#139

Post by fsflover »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #136
fsflover wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface. AFAIK none of these describes systemd.

That seems to describe systemd extremely well. Lots of little tools like networkd, homed, journald... that do one thing, do it well and work together. And using text+time stamps.

AFAIK the systemd parts don't have well-defined interfaces. At least I've never seen any independent replacement of any of those small parts, as opposed to replacement of whole systemd.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#140

Post by pmontra »

cturner wrote: post #89
pmontra wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yesterday I learned that it has its own alternative to NTP: systemd-timesyncd. Quite a big dose of NIH.

Solving integration problems well is often harder than implementing functionality.

I second that but unfortunately they implemented only the basic functionality. I quote https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/464729

> systemd-timesyncd does no clock discipline: the clock is not trained or compensated, and internal clock drift over time is not reduced. It has rudimentary logic to adjust poll interval but without disciplining the host will end up with uneven time forever as systemd-timesyncd pushes or pulls at whatever interval it thinks the near-term drift requires. It also can't assess the quality of the remote time source. You're unlikely to get accuracy much greater than 100ms. This is sufficient for simple end user devices like laptops, but it could definitely cause problems for distributed systems that want greater time precision.

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