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PHP 8.1.0

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Re: PHP 8.1.0

#131

Post by Ayesh »

pdenton wrote: post #49

Question: does class_exists still return TRUE when given the QCN to an enum? Because it's not possible to instantiate an enum, if one appears in the constructor of a class it'll break auto-wiring. I've written my own IoC containers and one fundamental assumption in them is that when class_exists returns true, it is what it says on the tin. Using a specialized factory would still be possible. I wonder if other contain…

Internally, Enums inherit a lot from classes.

I wrote an indepth article about this: https://php.watch/versions/8.1/enums#enum-exists

There is an `enum_exists` function that only returns true for Enums. It's fairly unintuitive to combine class_exists with enum_exists to filter out Enums, I agree.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#132

Post by commanderkeen08 »

ipaddr wrote: post #108
Gigachad wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One comment I heard at a programming meetup recently was "I hate how frameworks like laravel have brought PHP back in to popularity when we had the chance to finally kill it off". I do wonder if there really was value in salvaging PHP when we have a wealth of other languages and frameworks that do a perfectly fine job without any of the legacy mistakes sitting around.

There isn't a language that can replace php in 2021. Javascript doesn't have the size of build-in library. Golang is compiled and limited, blank spaces/tabs will kill a Python program. Ruby /rails is slower. All are harder to host. What could you replace php with? The tales of legacy mistakes holding back php are things with no basis in reality. What legacy mistake holds php back? Method names/parameter ordering? Whe…

Honest question: what are people using if not PHP? Node? Python? The 80% of us who aren’t FAANG and are writing CRUD apps. I’ve tried researching the pros/cons and all I get are low quality listicles.

Nobody can tell me why PHP is “bad” or what Python does that PHP can’t. Inconsistent params are the only argument I’ve heard. Which my IDE solves. What about JavaScript splice vs slice. I look it up every time.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#133

Post by rad_gruchalski »

firefoxd wrote: post #30

I've been using PHP since 5.x. Often had to work on older 4.x web apps. I find it interesting when I read people saying "PHP has come a long way. It's a proper language now, etc." If you work long enough with a language and figure out most its quirks, it's a breeze. It's nice that they are adding all these new features, but they are hardly what makes it or break it for me. Here is the one features that is taken for g…

I just run go test. No need for alt+tab. Why reloading anything when testing the backend code?

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#134

Post by VMtest »

Reading some comments here and it does confuse me

Promises, async and await in javascript, coroutines and threads in kotlin, fibers in some language runtime (including this php 8.1 [0]), single process (nodejs), multi-process(php-fpm worker), single-thread, multi-thread, goroutines in go, multi-core coroutines

Googling the definitions and x vs y situation helps a little, the main confusion to me is why some people want this xyz feature in a language runtime and not the other, the pros and cons are seriously so confusing

I have probably used several, like promises, async, await, like others said async would be implement on fibers [1] (is php 8.1 implementation same as V8,spidermonkey,javascriptcore? or any other language runtime). And I have tried to understand kotlin coroutines as well

modern times to run php, people would use php-fpm with nginx, it is running multiple worker (single) process, so why would anyone [2], [3] wants multi-core coroutines in it? What does it even mean?

Writing this out ease my mind a bit yea, need to be able to communicate the confusion instead of just saying "programming is difficult"

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29343773

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344427

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29344704

[3]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29345986

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#135

Post by eloisius »

ipaddr wrote: post #97
krisrm wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elegant is not the word I'd use to describe PHP. Solid, perhaps. Undoubtedly useful. But if there is elegant PHP, I haven't seen it.

PHP is elegant and useful. The spread operator is ...$array is elegant. $var ? "not found"; is really elegant.

It’s also about ten years later than everyone else to get those splat and null coalesce operators so it’s not like that elegance is unique or even timely for PHP.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#136

Post by smsm42 »

the_gipsy wrote: post #74
firefoxd wrote: post #30

I've been using PHP since 5.x. Often had to work on older 4.x web apps. I find it interesting when I read people saying "PHP has come a long way. It's a proper language now, etc." If you work long enough with a language and figure out most its quirks, it's a breeze. It's nice that they are adding all these new features, but they are hardly what makes it or break it for me. Here is the one features that is taken for g…

With a proper type system you don’t need to run your code 50 times a minute.

I never seen any practical proof of that often repeated claim. Unless you define "proper" in an absurd way that has absence of bugs as the part of its definition, I've seen roughly as many bugs and as much time spent debugging in strongly typed languages as I have in weakly typed ones. Sure, some kinds of bugs go away, but they're replaced with different ones.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#137

Post by gremlinsinc »

Gigachad wrote: post #60
pachico wrote: post #18

Everyone laughing at PHP hasn't tried it for years, I'd bet. It started clumsy, true, but it became a solid and quite elegant way of doing things. And by things I don't mean just web development. The current limitations I see in PHP is that there is not an official multi-core coroutines solution.

One comment I heard at a programming meetup recently was "I hate how frameworks like laravel have brought PHP back in to popularity when we had the chance to finally kill it off". I do wonder if there really was value in salvaging PHP when we have a wealth of other languages and frameworks that do a perfectly fine job without any of the legacy mistakes sitting around.

other than Phoenix framework maybe are there any others with as much included as laravel has?

caching, jobs, docker via sail, authentication and authorization, one command to have a full multi team/tenant SaaS app template via jet stream.

even rails doesn't have this, as you need to choose your own implementation for auth and access control, something like sidekick for job queue etc....

plus the ecosystem. I've tried so hard to like other frameworks and some I really do (like remix.run) but the lack of real momentum and community hurts most anything else and just doing everything as serverless micro services isn't always preferred or using micro frameworks.

I'm excited for the new features and with octane you can get more reqs per second than Phoenix framework which should make it easier to scale apps with less resources.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#138

Post by path411 »

the_gipsy wrote: post #74
firefoxd wrote: post #30

I've been using PHP since 5.x. Often had to work on older 4.x web apps. I find it interesting when I read people saying "PHP has come a long way. It's a proper language now, etc." If you work long enough with a language and figure out most its quirks, it's a breeze. It's nice that they are adding all these new features, but they are hardly what makes it or break it for me. Here is the one features that is taken for g…

With a proper type system you don’t need to run your code 50 times a minute.

Well php has strong typing built in now and they have been iterating on it every release. It's well ahead of native js. I can't imagine having any real complaints on using 8.x php for a back end these days.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#139

Post by gremlinsinc »

Gigachad wrote: post #116
mschuster91 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones would that have been? Perl? Python? Java? JavaScript? Among that choice set, PHP is definitely the best contender.

I would say that Ruby on Rails is a pretty good candidate to completely replace PHP with.

does rails come with a generator to create a teams based multi tenant SaaS app with authorization and authentication and job queues without extra setup? (ie without decide and sidekick?)...

can rails compete with the performance of octane using swoole with 8k reqs per sec?

rails is the first framework I ever learned in 2012 but I kept jumping back and forth until laravel basically started lapping rails in terms of baked in goodies.

Re: PHP 8.1.0

#140

Post by nucleardog »

Gigachad wrote: post #116
mschuster91 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones would that have been? Perl? Python? Java? JavaScript? Among that choice set, PHP is definitely the best contender.

I would say that Ruby on Rails is a pretty good candidate to completely replace PHP with.

I think you (and to be fair, many people) are missing a huge part of why PHP is still popular. Saying Ruby can replace PHP sounds to me like saying that Ruby can replace Excel. It's fundamentally misunderstanding _why_ it's popular in the first place.

I have a HTML page. How do I add a hit counter to it with Ruby?

I can do it right now in PHP with zero dependencies and it'll fit in this comment:

    
        
You are visitor number:
Is it shit? Yep. Does it (mostly) work? Yep.

When you want to do something, you can just copy and paste a handful of lines of PHP into a file and rename it from .html to .php and it'll basically work anywhere. You don't need to worry about frameworks or anything. Routing is handled by the web server. Hosting is handled by someone else. Deploying is just FTP'ing a .php file off to a server somewhere and then requesting it.

But when you are ready to get into "real" programming, that's all there too. PHP has a true learning _curve_. Every bit of complexity is only a small step from the previous. Getting started does not require a ton of background or knowledge. You can start out copying and pasting some code into the middle of some HTML and a year later end up working within once of the nicer, more comprehensive frameworks managing your dependencies with a relatively decent package manager... and still hosting it all on your $3/mo shared hosting.

If every professional developer stopped using PHP tomorrow, we'd still end up back exactly where we are as a bunch of people found PHP as the most accessible and direct solution to the problem they have.

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