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Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

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131–140 of 362 posts

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#131
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression it was a synonym for area bombing - e.g. throwing a bunch of bombs at a place to inflict damage in a general way. As opposed to having a very specific target. What's your definition?

Tens of thousands of people being displaced seems pretty general to me.

How does that compare to other conflicts? Tossing around numbers without any context doesn't do anyone any good. There are four ongoing "Major Wars" with 10,000+ fatalities in the last year, which undoubtedly displaced orders of magnitude more people

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#132

Can someone explain the strong ties between US and Israel, and why US stands behind Israel, no matter what?

Historically, this hasn't always been the case, and the US were actively opposed to Israel's covert Nuclear program, for example, which was built with French support against the wishes of the US government at the time. The world has change significantly since then, including the French and American governments alignment of interests and weighing to pros and cons. I'm sure other people here can provide more nuance tha…

> Historically, this hasn't always been the case

The second largest political party in the first Knesset was Mapam, which had ideological ties to the Soviet Union (the largest party was the center left Worker's Party or Mapai). The USSR was the first country to recognize Israel, followed by future Warsaw Pact members Czechosolvakia and Poland. Then Hungary and Romania recognized Israel. The next year, the US decided to recognize Israel. So Israel initially had better diplomatic relations with the future Warsaw Pact than the USA.

With the 1967 war, these Warsaw Pact countries all broke diplomatic relations with Israel (except Romania, which was in the process of breaking away from the USSR). Relations between the US and Israel improved dramatically in 1967. In 1973 Israel had an ill-fated war with Egypt, whose Sinai peninsula was occupied by Israel since 1967, and in 1977, Likud took over the Knesset for the first time.

So 1967 was an important year in the relationship shift.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#133
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is undoubtedly false. Speaking of "purported evidence" when there is literally no credible evidence submitted by the Israeli government for these allegations is misleading at best. Their whole case rests on the testimony of two Palestinian accountants, likely attained by torture, that worked for two organizations that were not included in the list of six [1]. They merely state it is "general knowledge" that thes…

Firstly, your source is incredibly biased - it is a Palestinian advocacy organization. Secondly, you make the claim that they attained the evidence by torture - with no evidence of such. The fact remains that two Palestinian accountants testified in court that these "charity" organizations were funneling money to the PFLP terrorist organization. HRW and AI may not think that the evidence is strong enough, and maybe i…

1. it's not an "advocacy organization" but a magazine. And this a) doesn't change the fact that the dossier provides no evidence and b) other media has reported on the dossier, including The Intercept [1].

2. I only mentioned that torture has been alleged. Shin Bet has a long-standing pattern of using torture and other inhuman or degrading treatment to obtain confessions.

3. These two disgraced accountants only provided assertions on general hypotheses, no concrete evidence. Such testimony isn't worth much. To quote +972 [see above]:

> An examination of the dossier’s “evidence,” however, along with an examination of the summaries of Abdat’s and Hamuda’s repeated interrogations, reveals that the accountants — who did not work for any of the six targeted organizations — based most of their accusations on general hypotheses, what they alleged was “common knowledge,” or information they claimed was widely “known.”

> More importantly, even Abdat’s and Hamuda’s unsubstantiated testimonies indicate, at most, that some of these organizations were involved in civic and public activities such as student events, helping the sick, and poetry classes that form part of the PFLP’s work as a movement in Palestinian society. A lawyer representing one of the accountants, Abdat, further alleges that his client may have been pressured to provide testimony following interrogation methods that could amount to torture or ill-treatment.

Their reliability must also be questioned:

> Moreover, the summaries of Abdat and Hamuda’s interrogations reveal how poorly acquainted they were with the six organizations listed in Gantz’s declaration. For example, during his interrogation on March 31, Hamuda mentioned the six groups but erroneously noted that parliamentarian Khalida Jarrar is the director of Addameer, an organization that defends the rights of Palestinian political prisoners, despite the fact that she has not headed the organization since 2006 (Addameer’s current director is attorney Sahar Francis).

4. I'm not sure we should accuse AI and HRW as biased, simply for standing up for human rights in Israel, which, considering where the majority of violation lie and who the occupying power is, will necessarily focus on one player. After all, it is not the PA but the Israeli army that demolishes homes or holds people in indefinite "administrative" detention.

---

In short, it is up for the Israeli government to prove publicly - beyond a reasonable doubt - that these severe allegations of terrorism funding are true and that the designation as terrorist associations is justified. It is not up to those organizations and their defenders to prove a negative. Innocent until proven guilty is after all the foundation of state respecting the rule of law.

A designation based on secret "evidence", combined with the fact that even confidential dossiers don't offer a shred of evidence, doesn't make this look like a justified designation

[1] https://theintercept.com/2021/11/04/secret-israel-dossier-pa...

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#134

Can someone explain the strong ties between US and Israel, and why US stands behind Israel, no matter what?

A more instructive question might be (warning: this is meant to get people thinking, but at least I'll be straight forward about it): Why does nobody else follow up on the UN resolution from 1948? (Just like in the case of India / Pakistan UN decided to divide the area into two parts, one for Jews, one for Arabs.) I can also ask: why does so few other support the single somewhat functioning democracy in the region? T…

> I can also ask: why does so few other support the single somewhat functioning democracy in the region?

In the West Bank, Palestinians are not allowed to form an army, have control over borders, or even control of travel around the West Bank. So they are made to nit have their own country (which Israel opposes) but to be part of Israel. So can they vote for Knesset candidates? No. (Yet an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn who has never been to the Middle East can make aliyah to a West Bank settlement and vote for Knesset candidates immediately).

Some "democracy".

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#135
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Al-Haq is a Palestinian human rights NGO funded by the European Union. Two weeks ago, Israel labeled six Palestinian NGOs, including al-Haq, terrorist organizations and has outlawed them. This was condemned by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and others. The EU also funded the other Palestinian human rights NGOs which Israel outlawed. The US had an office in Jerusalem dealing with Palestinians that Trump clo…

I don't understand how people can think Israel mass bombed gaza. Israel has one of the largest militaries in the world. If they decided to mass bomb somewhere, it wouldn't be a place anymore. Its not the 1800s. A mass bombing is not something anyone walks away from in the modern world.

But they do walk away from mass bombings. I mean, heck, folks walked away from nukes (most later died of cancer, but not all). More folks survived the hindenberg than died in the crash. And so on.

Mass bombings tend to kill folks in the blast areas, but there are a lot of places that aren't directly in the blast. If you destroy one house with a bomb, the surrounding houses will likely have damage but still stand - and the residents will know.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#136
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2018 all payment processors (MC/Visa/Amex) banned payments to Al-Haq due to allegations that they forwarded money to PFLP, so this is not new news. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-8-2019-00193... This was based on testimony given in court by two Palestinian accountants that Al-Haq was funneling money to terrorism. It should be noted that Al-Haq does not make disclose either the sources or destinati…

Those allegations came from the same place this “evidence” did.

Since when is testimony from their own Palestinian accountants not considered evidence?

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#137
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Al-Haq is a Palestinian human rights NGO funded by the European Union. Two weeks ago, Israel labeled six Palestinian NGOs, including al-Haq, terrorist organizations and has outlawed them. This was condemned by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and others. The EU also funded the other Palestinian human rights NGOs which Israel outlawed. The US had an office in Jerusalem dealing with Palestinians that Trump clo…

> including the building in which the Associated Press had its office, a building Israel said it purposely targeted. Why did you omit the reason for targeting? "... because it was being used by the groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad and that terrorist attacks were directed from there" https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-has-received-mo...

There are so many facts omitted in the comment you are replying to, there is no question it is not a comment made in good faith.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact based claim is that the Israel government haven’t provided evidence to their claims and therefore the claims are unsubstantiated. Any discussion of conspiracy can be put to rest with some proof.

but since when governments need to provide evidence and to whom? the world government? Can I go to random governments around the world and ask them to show evidence about their security issues to my organization?

[deleted]

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact based claim is that the Israel government haven’t provided evidence to their claims and therefore the claims are unsubstantiated. Any discussion of conspiracy can be put to rest with some proof.

but since when governments need to provide evidence and to whom? the world government? Can I go to random governments around the world and ask them to show evidence about their security issues to my organization?

Yes, and you should. And for those governments who can’t or won’t provide evidence, you should disregard their assertions as baseless and suspect.

I mean, why wouldn’t you demand proof? Governments have a long and nasty history of conflating their political interests with security interests, just trusting their assertions seems extremely foolhardy.

Re: Six Palestinian organizations hacked with NSO Group’s Pegasus Spyware

#140
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel, a country that terrorizes Palestinians on the daily accuses everyone that fights it as terrorists. Maybe some are, but I think our minds should be initialized to “given the terror you consciously and actively spread, please provide evidence for any terrorist accusations”.

> Israel, a country that terrorizes Palestinians on the daily accuses They don't. Sending a Police Riot control unit against a group of people throwing stones and molotovs does not qualify as being terrorized. > accuses everyone that fights it as terrorists. If they hurt bystanding civilians (and they do) or funnel money for it (and they do) there is nothing wrong with that. > Maybe some are They are, Hamas, Hezbolla…

Ever wondered why those people are protesting? If you only follow the history of the region you’d quickly realize that Israel did (and does) terrorize their neighbors who in turn retaliated and the vicious cycle of vendettas on eachother continues to this day. What is realy cool about Israel is that they’re a democratic country and a large part of their country denounces all this violence, there is a way forward towards peace. But before that look closely at a map, Israel has sistematically divided and isolated most Palestinian land in an obvious divide and empera plan.
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