Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#131

Post by edenstrom » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

scoot wrote: post #95

urvader wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(I am Christian Landgren, cofounder of the project) You are right, the city believes they have ownership of the data, mainly because they fail to understand that they aren’t showing data in an app, but rather publishing data in an API. In Swedish law, once you have released data from a government, the receiver have the right to do whatever they want with the that data (as long as it isn’t violating any other laws). T…

Hi, congrats on the app. I was curious about one thing in the article - why would the city pay to license the app when it is open source? Do you anticipate that this would be cheaper for them than them paying one of their overpriced contractors to build and publish an "official" version, given how much they spent on a CRUD app?

Swede here. This is just a guess, but I think it's the illusion of control. Too much negative press about the conflict, and this is their attempt at controlling the narrative and "taking responsibility". We'll see what the future holds.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#132

Post by bjourne » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

urvader wrote: post #73

taylodl wrote: post #22

The first thing that jumps out is Sweden has a national identity system, BankID. The APIs appear to be protected using those credentials. With that in mind I have two questions: 1. Who owns the data? 2. Should public funds be used for the creation of private APIs that manage the data? The answer to (1) has consequences for (2). I think many HN readers, including myself, and certainly these parents would argue that th…

(I am Christian Landgren, cofounder of the project) You are right, the city believes they have ownership of the data, mainly because they fail to understand that they aren’t showing data in an app, but rather publishing data in an API. In Swedish law, once you have released data from a government, the receiver have the right to do whatever they want with the that data (as long as it isn’t violating any other laws). T…

But there is no API here. The article makes it clear that you were intercepting client-server communication not meant to be used by third parties in order to write your own client. That it could be used as an API doesn't matter since the intent wasn't to create an API.

I could do the same thing and write an app for, say, the tax agency by scraping its website but it would be a legal gray area.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#133

Post by Disruptive_Dave » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

namdnay wrote: post #106

locallost wrote: post #29

> The platform is a complex system that’s made up of three different parts, containing 18 individual modules that are maintained by five external companies. The sprawling system is used by 600 preschools and 177 schools, with separate logins for every teacher, student, and parent. The only problem? It doesn’t work. > The Skolplattform, which has cost more than 1 billion Swedish Krona, SEK, ($117 million), has failed…

So an app for schoolkids is a really good idea. In France the app is built by the (semi-public) post office, it's called "kidscare". teachers can upload photos live, you can set who is allowed to pick up your kids, you can send a notification if your kid is sick etc... not the slickest or most stable app, but miles better than using whatsapp

We have many of these in the US. I've used two in daycare. One was amazing, the other is pretty good. Both fall short because of poor use by teachers and faculty.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#134

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

It’s a government system. Of course it’s shit. When private systems are shit, they die. When gov systems are shit they attract more funding.

The simple dynamic of negative monetary feedback for shitness in private enterprise and positive monetary feedback for shitness in government determines this entirely.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#135

Post by ClumsyPilot » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

themitigating wrote: post #35

dylan604 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please. If those in charge allowed the passionate to do these kinds of things, they wouldn't remain in charge. Authoritarian dicators not required.

Because there's only two levels 1. Passionate that produces amazing software 2. Completely don't care

In most areas there arent enough passionate people to get something major done, as most OSS maintainers found out, thry rarely get a serious commit or contribution

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#136

Post by GhettoComputers » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #63

silicon2401 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Places like Sweden, Japan, Taiwan are often touted as examples of why XYZ works. However people often fail to mention that these places are, relative to many countries like the US, extremely homogenous in culture and ethnicity. Certain things that work in those countries will fall apart when attempted in a more diverse country.

What does this have to do with ethnicity?

People trust those that look more like them. It’s just human nature. It’s why people say all all white jury is racist when defendants are black, or why cops are racist. Putnam’s diversity study also confirmed it. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-diversity-cr... the authors hand save the data with the usual ham fisted white people are racist retort. Sociologists aren't respected because of authors like them who have no basis in reality.

It isn’t the only factor; China does it through culture, or Sinofication. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization “Han Chinese” isn’t based on genetics it’s many different races that call themselves Han because they share culture. This is historically what happened in China and is now happening in Africa and South America.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#137

Post by newbamboo » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #93

newbamboo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s good to be involved but an app that passes information to the parent, essentially bypassing the child, is disempowering to the child. The child should know and be able to tell you she has a math test. If she is not good at managing that sort of thing, then she needs to get better. Using an app to circumvent the child’s own management of that stuff is at least similar to micromanaging.

> If she is not good at managing that sort of thing, then she needs to get better. ...And how do you think that happens? "Sarah, I can't help but notice that you have emotional regulation issues. Go get better at it."

I would ask her why she didn’t do well on her math test and encourage her to think about strategies she could use to do better on the next one. I believe in providing scaffolding and empowering young minds. I realize there are different parenting styles but at some point the child won’t have anyone else to manage her and will need to solve problems in her own. It’s great if she has a lot of practice and experience with self management by the time she has to fly solo. I suppose if there’s enough wealth in the family she may never need to manage her own affairs, but I feel like she would be missing out on important aspects of life; the pride and comfort that comes with self sufficiency and personal accomplishment.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#138

Post by renewiltord » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

Diggsey wrote: post #83

wonderwonder wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you have kids, I am guessing not, if I am wrong, my apologies. Knowing what your kids have due for school is not micromanaging its a core part of being a good parent. I know if my kid has a math test so it lets me sit down with him and review for his test, it allows me to ensure he knows the basis for whatever comes next in his curriculum. Terribly overbearing parents are not good but I think people a…

That's absolutely micromanaging and negative. The goal of school isn't just to pass the tests. If a kid fails to revise for a test, but it doesn't matter because their parent will just look up the schedule and force them to revise, then they learn nothing beyond what's in the test. If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise through th…

Interesting strategy. How have your kids performed under it?

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#139

Post by newbamboo » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #113

moffkalast wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And quite the opposite, it reinforces the idea that they don't need to remember it so they never will.

Are you able to tell us, without looking at your calendar, every meeting you have for the next week, every assigned task without consulting your task manager, all without fail and with perfect recall of the details? Expecting more from a child's brain than you do of yourself is folly.

Should a child know what calendars are for? It seems like that could be a useful tool for them to have in their toolkit.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#140

Post by pwdisswordfish8 » Thu, Nov 04, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

drcongo wrote: post #128

Every edutech platform I've ever had to use (UK, with 3 kids going through school) is an abomination, the whole sector needs disrupting. My current nemesis is Iris Parentmail [0], a convoluted jumble of javascript that presents the user with a challenge - try to read the apparently important message the school has sent you before Parentmail crashes your browser. If the message is particularly long, then there's an en…

For anyone who's been burned by these:

Why aren't you equally as mad at the personnel at your child's school? It's one thing for a national or semi-national rollout of broken enterprise junk, it's another thing for your child's instructor to go along and demand that you use this broken system instead of providing reasonable affordances (e.g. low-tech, paper-based notices/forms that get sent home with your kid).

For that matter, how do your school systems handle the situation where no one in the household is able or willing to install the damn thing because e.g. you don't own an iOS or Android device, or you have no smartphone at all? Is there an actual legal requirement for you to contribute on an ongoing basis to the bottom-line of select tech companies like Apple and Google in order to participate in public life—as if it's on par with the necessity to pay for e.g. renewing your government-issued ID?