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A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

economist.com

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Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#131

Post by StanislavPetrov »

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #130
seehafer wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Homeless Industrial Complex is as responsible for maintaining the conditions in SF as Chesa and his hands-off enforcement policies are. A lot of strife in our society today can be attributed to non-profits being incentivized to keep their raison d'être continuing in perpetuity.

It's easy to blame the system instead of making people take personal responsibility for their actions.

It's also easy to blame the system when the system has failed miserably. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#132

Post by batman-farts »

mc32 wrote: post #6
DoreenMichele wrote: post #3

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

>One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. >I think the nation as a whole needs substantially more affordable housing. And San Francisco will never be a place with affordable housing. Modesto, ok. Manteca, ok. Not SF. No one ever thinks, I'm homeless, lemme go to SF and see if I can find something there. It's political. Otherwise you'd see more homeless i…

Perhaps this speaks to your point, but the situation is just as bad in the outlying Central Valley cities. There are currently people camping on the embankment of Highway 120 through Manteca. Stockton's situation only kept getting worse after the 2008 recession, and there are tent camps in drastically unsafe areas along the freeway shoulder there as well. This has been going on for years.

It's definitely a regional problem, not just something isolated to a single city. I often wonder if people move around from town to town as their connections in the community shift, or they get a bad rep with local law enforcement... a friend who was formerly an EMT had an anecdote of a woman he picked up in Antioch for a meth-induced mental health incident who he saw, years later, stumbling around outside the hospital in Oakland in much the same state.

I think it's entirely possible that people come to SF or LA as an intentional destination and then, over time, get flushed towards the outlying cities, if they don't get ground into the dirt first. The current Atlantic article about the changing meth trade features a transgender person on skid row in LA who came there from the Midwest, believing that they could eventually gain access to gender reassignment surgery: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new...

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#133

Post by refurb »

deanCommie wrote: post #121
no_butterscotch wrote: post #39

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

It's good that people investigate homelessness and go one level deeper. But why do they stop at drug addiction? Or worse, decide that drug addiction is the underlying root cause that now needs to be treated with rehab, detox, or what have you. Drug addiction is not the cause of poverty. Poverty is the cause of drug addiction. The stories of the people who get into drugs recreationally, then descend into addiction, an…

Poverty is the cause of drug addiction.

That explains the rampant drug abuse in the wealthy?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#134

Post by m0zg »

adt2bt wrote: post #114
m0zg wrote: post #93

Same exact thing is happening in Seattle as we speak. They are buying hotels and converting them to permanent housing and, get this, do not require that you don't take drugs or look for a job if you live there. How the fuck are people supposed to "exit homelessness" if they're addicted and jobless? The answer is, they don't expect them to _ever_ exit it. I went to a city council meeting and asked actually. They did n…

So what’s your proposal? Generally the #1 problem faced by homeless people is a lack of housing. Issues 2-10 will require support and help as well if we care about rehabilitation and reentry into society. Even if flawed, giving these people homes in converted hotels is likely better for them and for us than not doing that. So what else shall you have us do? Less, hoping we can ‘fix’ them with some good old fashioned…

Mandatory sheltering, mandatory substance abuse treatment, work requirement. I'm sure state government can provide sufficient jobs - the number of the homeless is not that huge (yet) in absolute terms. I'd also argue that shelter is not #1 problem - if anything this is one of the easier problems to solve. To have shelter you don't need to provide hotel type housing - hostel / dormitory type stuff with shared facilities would be quite sufficient. As far as I can tell, substance abuse is the main problem. There are shelters in Seattle area, but they require that people who stay in them are sober. So they just don't go there and shoot up drugs in their tents instead. Now they'll just be shooting up drugs in government provided (AKA taxpayer funded) $300K-each hotel rooms. I'm sure that'll work well, for the cartels and the various "nonprofit" hangers on. Local populace might think differently though.

There will be a small subset of people who can't support themselves due to disability and such, and I'd be OK with providing such folks permanent housing. I don't want anyone freezing to death on the sidewalk. Everyone else needs "tough love" as you put it.

There was actually an illustrative example in the public hearing: after the county representatives were done telling everyone how expensive it is to put people in jail, a former homeless person came up to the mic and told people how, if it wasn't for jail (where he ended up for stealing a bicycle to sell in order to get his next meth hit) he'd likely be dead now.

Jail is clearly not the answer, but forced rehab MUST be part of the answer. We will lose 100K people (yes, go check the stats for last year) this year to overdoses alone. We shouldn't pretend people can get off the needle on their own somehow, or that hard drugs are somehow socially acceptable.

And able bodied folks should be required to work, and pay what they can. Otherwise they aren't ever getting out their predicament. SF should have taught our local government something, but apparently they're so dumb they can't put 2 and 2 together anymore. It's now down to who signals the most virtue and funnels the most taxpayer money to the right nonprofits.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#135

Post by b9a2cab5 »

deanCommie wrote: post #121
no_butterscotch wrote: post #39

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

It's good that people investigate homelessness and go one level deeper. But why do they stop at drug addiction? Or worse, decide that drug addiction is the underlying root cause that now needs to be treated with rehab, detox, or what have you. Drug addiction is not the cause of poverty. Poverty is the cause of drug addiction. The stories of the people who get into drugs recreationally, then descend into addiction, an…

No, it's the result of policies that tolerate and support people refusing to engage with society. Why don't you try going to Chinese slums and seeing if there's homeless? China is equally as capitalistic and has more wealth inequality than the US. And the same problems in housing costs. Homelessness is an American (West Coast liberal) problem. Funny how East Coast cities don't have these problems.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#136

Post by icelancer »

door103 wrote: post #55

"A culture of permissive lawlessness"? A studio apartment in San Francisco starts at what, $2k? > Mr Shellenberger thinks they are on the streets in part because of a “housing-first” approach, which holds out for permanent, individual homes at the expense of building enough temporary accommodation. So his approach is that San Francisco should have third world-style slums? The solutions are simple: rent control and pu…

Rent control literally leads to constrained supply.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#137

Post by oh_sigh »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #3

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

Homeless people want to move somewhere warm and dry year-round. For homed people, that is less of an issue. And maybe I'm wrong, but I really doubt housing prices are the reason. You can have adequate shelter for very cheap with roommates, if you don't want to live downtown. That certainly beats the pants off sharing under a bridge with 10 strangers and their tents.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#138

Post by b9a2cab5 »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #16

> He blames San Francisco’s woes on a culture of permissive lawlessness and a mistaken view of what constitutes moral policymaking. A frequent critique of those that want to solve the homeless problem by sending in the police to crack heads and send everyone to prison. The main goal here of course being to ensure that the homeless "go away" somewhere out of view. In reality most of the "crimes" that people are wringi…

Ah, clearly petty theft is no bother and correcting the injustices of oppressive society!

I hope you experience your things being stolen one day and not being able to afford to replace them and change your mind.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#139

Post by icelancer »

adventured wrote: post #28
TedShiller wrote: post #12

I have some bad news for "housing advocates": More housing will never be the solution to the homeless problem. You want to see a lot of drug users and homeless people? You'll find them in areas of dense housing. Secondly, there is no "housing shortage". You're just looking in the wrong place. That's like saying there is a shortage of air in outer space.

One of the most important things for San Francisco - regarding homelessness - is to utilize housing first principles to remove the homeless from the streets. There is not plenty of housing for that in SF and there is very little will to change that. They have the wealth base to do it, they have the income base to do it. They're a mix of cowards and immoral misers (those who refuse to act). 2019: "Bolstered by its tra…

Money is not the issue. NIMBYism is. And many so-called leftist people love the idea of affordable public housing... just not near them.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#140

Post by b9a2cab5 »

refurb wrote: post #127
samschooler wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mayor of Denver never went to these camps. You may be talking about the Mayor of Aurora (city next to Denver) who just decided one day to pretend to be homeless. He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. He just went to the most visible camps, met the most visible people and essentially just increased the stigma. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/auroras-mayor-went-unde...

So you’re saying his own experiences should be dismissed because he didn’t gather information through “official” channels?

Clearly it wasn't the "right" opinion, so it must be dismissed!
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