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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#131

Post by jeswin »

aaomidi wrote: post #92

Of course Julia was behind the removal of it. I'm so glad I'm not at Microsoft anymore. Her decisions might be great for Microsoft's profit margins, but my god does she hate people getting "stuff for free"

Open source leadership can only be handled well by people who have experienced and participated in Open Source. If Microsoft is serious about Open Source, they need to put in charge someone who's done this before. They have plenty of people who can lead this; Scott Hanselman, Miguel Icaza, Nat Friedman...

Whoever approved this in the first place has shown a shocking level of incompetence in understanding how the developer ecosystems have tilted in the last decade.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#132

Post by oneplane »

nseggs wrote: post #106
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Desktop is dead?

Desktop for the bulk of generic CRUD apps is dead. But that has always been the case because that's not the main benefit of having a desktop.

Same for 'what was your first computer', there is a whole generation (or maybe two of them at this point) that started out with smartphones and didn't get to the 'using a desktop' level until much later when preparation for work life required it.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#133

Post by oneplane »

bmitc wrote: post #111
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

> but desktop is dead People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true. There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

People probably refer to generic functionality like personal PIM (which boils down to webmail, Facebook products and Google products) as no longer being desktop-based.

While there are industries that still use local compute and local rendering, that is exactly what it's about: industries. You might have image and video and audio manipulation. There could be hardware control. Maybe there is 'appliance'-like functionality such as POS and vending systems. But those aren't really the mass-desktop scenario that it used to be. That is mainly 'work' usage.

There is this section that you can carve out that does still exist in the traditional form and that is gaming. But that essentially turns the 'desktop' into a gaming console.

Legacy configurations that require things like an actual mouse pointer and multiple windows (or that dreaded MDI document-window-in-a-window interface) are generally left in two categories:

1. bad implementations

2. niche implementations

The first one means investment to fix, which is generally not going to happen if there is no commercial incentive for a commercial piece of software. The second one is a niche and doesn't represent desktops in general.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#134

Post by ziml77 »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #63
holografix wrote: post #9

I just wrote a comment on the other post about this. I wonder how this decision was made _behind the scenes_. Either some negotiation happened and the Visual Studio team got some concessions (smaller target?) or it was mandated from the top. Both alternatives do not bode well for the VS team.

The Verge has an article about this.[0] >The Verge understands that the decision to remove the functionality from .NET 6 was made by Julia Liuson, the head of Microsoft’s developer division. Sources describe the move as a business-led decision, and it’s clear the company thought it would fly under the radar and not generate a backlash. Engineers at Microsoft that have worked on .NET for years with the open source com…

Sounds like Liuson needs to be removed from Microsoft. I'm not usually looking for blood, but since they put this feature back it confirms that there was no good reason for it to be removed other than pure greed.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#135

Post by tomnipotent »

saghm wrote: post #130
tomnipotent wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the Stack Overflow developer survey, Visual Studio is still the second most-used IDE by professionals. Granted, SO has a very strong .NET community so there may be some bias.

IDE specifically, or editor in general? The former wouldn't really surprise me since most of the editors I see friends and coworkers using aren't really IDEs per se; I mostly see people using VS Code, Vim, Sublime, and maybe emacs occasionally. The only IDEs people I know ever talk about using besides VS are Jetbrains products and I guess Xcode for iOS dev.

https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#section-most-...

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#136

Post by ziml77 »

blibble wrote: post #36
ethbr0 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, VS needs to be put under VSC management. You saw the same crap with Office vs everything new.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

Are you loading your projects from a network mount? Because the timings you're giving don't make any sense for those specs. I could believe it if the files aren't local though since VS does a lot of disk IO in the solution directory.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#137

Post by tweedledee »

The real problem is just how damn expensive it is to build anything inside Microsoft. It makes it hard and harder to justify spending the money. AFAIK it’s only getting worse. I expect in time that more and more dark patterns will creep in.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#138

Post by solarkraft »

aliswe wrote: post #17
solarkraft wrote: post #15

It’s nice that they walked back on immediately blowing up the whole .NET ecosystem. But it’s not like everything is fine again. The Foundation is apparently a bit of a mess and the C# debugger is STILL not available on VScode versions built from source. That and that they would ever even consider doing this still discourages serious investment into .NET.

That person who messed up just left the foundation btw.

You’re probably talking about the repository migration, but that’s probably the least of their problems: https://www.theregister.com/2021/10/11/dotnet_foundation_com...

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#139

Post by rafaelvasco »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

There's some new smart code suggestion features on VS2022 that I've never seen anywhere else before. But talking about VSCode, it depends. For C# development it doesn't replace VS at all, far from it. Omnisharp is not good enough. There's scenarios and scenarios. I code game development things with C# on VS. And I work professionally coding JS stuff with VSCode. Different scenarios.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#140

Post by rafaelvasco »

gbraad wrote: post #103
babypuncher wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what keeps me on Visual Studio. It's free for personal and open-source use, so I use it at home. Since I know it and am familiar with it, I make my employer pay for a commercial license at work. In the grand scheme of things, it is not that expensive in a commercial setting. VS Code is great, but I do not think it is a comprehensive replacement for Visual Studio proper when doing full stack .NET development.

You can use OmniSharp. It is not ideal, but makes life easier. Though it seems MS actively disallows employees to come n tribute to them. If you do GUI work, you pretty much have to use VS. :-/

VS used to be heavy and bloated. But that was a long time ago. I use VS since 2010 version. It improved by leaps and bounds since then. New 2022 version is almost as fast as VSCode, if you have a good PC.
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