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FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

cgit.freebsd.org

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Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A woman in engineering should know that just because things have been probable in the past does not mean they will in the future For a guy growing around computers it has also been pretty lonely, more girls would have been welcome at any stage...

> A woman in engineering should know that just because things have been probable in the past does not mean they will in the future I don't think I would tell someone what they "should" know. That 'knowledge' seems like an unlikely possibility: I think it probable that significant discrimination against women in tech will (very unfortunately) continue for another generation, at least. One signal to me is that many rej…

Just take a look at all the comments here. What you don't see is that I've been downvoted a ton as well, and in at least one comment that I think was removed, was called a cancer.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know he was a he?

in my native language, he is the neutral pronoun (it's a gendered language). so, even when speaking english, i still, sometimes, use he as the the neutral pronoun (like calling an unknown user him). what i mean is: your type of comment is actually quite weird. you don't know the person you are replying to. you don't know if english is their first, second, third or fourth language. also, people make mistakes and inste…

When I went to school, which wasn't that long ago, 'he' was also the gender neutral pronoun for English.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#133
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did write they. Which is why I called it out when I saw what I presumed was a presumed he (apparently you wrote it in another comment, so I was wrong in this specific case... the threading/timeline made that unclear). Regardless of your philosophy, the constant presumption of male hood is all over on HN if you're sensitive to watch for it. I don't know what your philosophy is, but the pattern absolutely is diffic…

I think this is an overly negative attitude. Note that I've worked for multiple very successful computer scientist women. They have no tolerance for folks who sit around and complain about the unfairness. It's clear their confidence, ego, and drive, allowed them to succeed. I slipped when I said he in the second comment. I normally prefer to not state the gender of people (to avoid the presumption of malehood) but I…

> I've worked for multiple very successful computer scientist women.

To make sure I read it right: I don't think you're suggesting that there are proportionally many non-male computer scientists, just that you've known a few.

> They have no tolerance for folks who sit around and complain about the unfairness. It's clear their confidence, ego, and drive, allowed them to succeed.

Isn't that a baseless insult? People can point out problems without 'sitting around', and they can 'sit around' without pointing out problems, and in fact the latter seems more likely to me: people who want to 'sit around' don't act in ways that create more emotional stress and work for themselves, and that threaten their employment. It's also a common response to shut down people who have legitimate concerns: Attack them, change the subject to them.

Accepting your characterization of these women you worked for, perhaps they are selected for those characteristics, because others could not survive. Many women have quietly endured discrimination, sexual harassment, and sexual assault as the only way to survive in their careers; look at the movie industry, for example. If your industry is selecting for 'success' like that, then there is something morally wrong (and you are losing a lot of talent). Discrimination, harassment, and assault should be stopped, and if someone points out that it's happening, that helps.

Also, many men succeed in tech without exceptional confidence, ego, and drive. The standard should be the same for non-men (just imagine being non-binary in tech).

> I think this is an overly negative attitude.

Why don't we see what women in tech think? Why talk about them in the third person? Probably because there are very few here on HN. Is that coincidence?

EDIT: Slight rewording, to minimize inflammation

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in my native language, he is the neutral pronoun (it's a gendered language). so, even when speaking english, i still, sometimes, use he as the the neutral pronoun (like calling an unknown user him). what i mean is: your type of comment is actually quite weird. you don't know the person you are replying to. you don't know if english is their first, second, third or fourth language. also, people make mistakes and inste…

When I went to school, which wasn't that long ago, 'he' was also the gender neutral pronoun for English.

Hmmm ... that was probably a decade or two into the prior century?

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A woman in engineering should know that just because things have been probable in the past does not mean they will in the future I don't think I would tell someone what they "should" know. That 'knowledge' seems like an unlikely possibility: I think it probable that significant discrimination against women in tech will (very unfortunately) continue for another generation, at least. One signal to me is that many rej…

Just take a look at all the comments here. What you don't see is that I've been downvoted a ton as well, and in at least one comment that I think was removed, was called a cancer.

Remember that HN isn't representative of tech, and commenters aren't representative of readers. It's great that you speak up, and that you do it reasonably and respectfully.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just take a look at all the comments here. What you don't see is that I've been downvoted a ton as well, and in at least one comment that I think was removed, was called a cancer.

Remember that HN isn't representative of tech, and commenters aren't representative of readers. It's great that you speak up, and that you do it reasonably and respectfully.

Thank you!

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#137

Why not just go to Bash or ZSH?

The ZSH shell would be actually great choice for shell in the FreeBSD Base System because it uses the MIT license. As BASH uses the GPL3 license it does not have the chance of being included in the FreeBSD Base System because the FreeBSD project currently tries to remove all GPL3 licensed software from its base. Details here: https://wiki.freebsd.org/GPLinBase

Minor nit that we mostly hadn't moved to GPL3 stuff, and now we're working on replacing the remainder of the GPL2 stuff.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#138

I am not a freebsd user, been on linux since 1992, but most of the time I read something about freebsd users and it seems like they want to be some older unix, like Solaris or True64 or something.

FreeBSD _is_ a Unix, being derived from the BSD Net-2 release in the early 1990s. GNU and Linux distributions are actually Unix clones, with different distributions mimicking or incorporating code from the various open source and proprietary Unix operating systems. For example, Slackware used to use an rc-style init system like BSD. Linux cgroups (underlying tech like Docker) look very much like Solaris zones. GNU co…

>FreeBSD _is_ a Unix

That's a common misconception. It's as much of a UNIX as Linux is (see the AT&T lawsuit).

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#139

A die-hard tcsh user myself, I mourn the end of an era, but has anyone done serious scripting in the C shell? I jokingly call it a sin in the eyes of the LORD, but seriously, it really, really sucks compared to even just the POSIX shell. It's probably time for me to finally give into Bash or zsh or something equally modern. Might be nice to get access to all of those shell completion hooks some tools have—not because…

The surprisingly-"smart" completions are the only thing I really notice about zsh vs. bash, but AFAIK you can add the same functionality to Bash if you like. Ditto the git-related prompt modifications, like showing the current branch or whether your working dir is dirty, which is kinda nice—you can configure that sort of thing in bash, as well. You can do all kinds of fancy stuff with zsh (especially via something li…

It's a sad state of affairs that when people think zsh they think "battery status".

The most important thing about zsh you should think of is "no need to quote variable expansion".

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#140

Why not just go to Bash or ZSH?

The ZSH shell would be actually great choice for shell in the FreeBSD Base System because it uses the MIT license. As BASH uses the GPL3 license it does not have the chance of being included in the FreeBSD Base System because the FreeBSD project currently tries to remove all GPL3 licensed software from its base. Details here: https://wiki.freebsd.org/GPLinBase

zsh isn't POSIX compliant though.
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