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Which version of JDK should I use?

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Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#131

Post by Zababa »

matsemann wrote: post #69
shartacct wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real reason to use java for new development in 2021.

Then use Kotlin, and take advantage of the jvm and the ecosystem, and avoid basically all the stuff you listed about the java language. "no real reason" is a stupid take. I could list multiple, but a big one is that there are hundred java developers for each dotnet developer in my city. The java env is well tested and well understood, if anything one should argue why not use it instead of a hip and trendy alternative…

Their point about using .NET were not really valid since one of the big and best reason to use Java is that you already have a Java codebase, but things like value types and generics without type erasure aren't solved in Kotlin, so Kotlin isn't really a good answer to his not really valid point.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#132

Post by krzyk »

shartacct wrote: post #41
krzyk wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should I stick to LTS? All other versions aren't in any way less tested, you should always stick to the newest released JDK version, be it LTS or not, this way you get all the benefits (language features, performance gains) and security ones (security fixes always first land in the newest version, and are backported to the older ones). Upgrades now are pretty straightforward if you are past JKD 9 - with JDK 16-17…

> (language features, performance gains) There haven't been any notable language features added since java 9 besides some basic syntax sugar (which is already covered by stuff like lombok anyway). For features and performance you might as well just target .NET 6. It has things that have been perpetually 'too hard to implement' (read: oracle doesn't want to pay their engineers to impl it and will sue you if you do it…

Records, switch expressions, multi line strings and that is only language changes.

You could call `+` syntatic sugar, just like anything past assembler being that.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#133

Post by KronisLV »

__jem wrote: post #109
KronisLV wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently upgrading a ~1M SLoC Java enterprise app (with regular Spring, Jetty in there, scheduled processes, PrimeFaces for web UI, REST API services, SOAP services, the whole shebang) from Java 8 to Java 11 (since 17 wasn't out when that change was approved) and it's largely proving to be a pain. Since the version of Spring is ancient and changes over to Spring Boot were also approved, now have to rewrite parts of…

I got stuck in this conundrum at my previous gig as well, and think reached a very different conclusion than you. In short, while I’m skeptical of some of the degree of churn across modern software development as a whole, I’m not sure that this is actually an issue with the Java ecosystem, which has been, and I think continues to be, way more sensitive to backwards compatibility than almost any other ecosystem. In so…

Personally, i'd never let a single monolith grow that far. Having a problem component or two that could be left on JDK 8 until they die and are rewritten (which would actually be possible with systems that have clearly defined boundaries and smaller scope), while migrating everything else.

Sadly, i don't get that choice, nor do i get the choice to make the judgement call to leave the monolith on JDK 8 in the name of stability. But hey, at least i'm paid a bit of money for it, so i have some motivation to work on all of it to the best of my abilities, learn a bit more about the JDK internals, have a word or two to tell others about my experience before i inevitably burn out from the churn.

Personally, i do still think that Java is pretty good when it comes to stability and backwards and forwards compatibility, especially since tooling like Maven is actually pretty good when compared to the alternatives (well, the parent POM functionality is confusing sometimes, but oh well, it has its use cases). That said, JDK 8 to newer releases was indeed a generational shift (probably one for the better) and you see similar things with Spring Boot 1.5 to Spring Boot 2.X, those breaking releases are inevitable.

I only wish that the things blocking people from writing more modular systems would disappear over time, so that huge monoliths that are incredibly hard to work with wouldn't be such an issue. I'm not necessarily advocating for microservices here, since people tend to go straight from one ditch into the opposite one (multiple services per person, nightmarish service mesh, needlessly large % of the code being for shuffling data around, suddenly building a distributed system even within a single domain), but at the very least it would be really nice to have someone look at it and say: "Hey, this PDF generation logic looks really brittle and perhaps should be a service of its own." or maybe: "Oh, hey, we're serving our RESTful API calls and front end resources from the same application, maybe we should have a separate front end app, served through a regular web server?"

Then again, if nothing else, i always have the choice to choose where i'm employed, even though i don't feel like letting my coworkers down at the moment either.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#134

Post by needusername »

nlitened wrote: post #118

Is there a way to apt-get the new JDK 17 as a package on Ubuntu, instead of piping a shell script from curl or unzipping a tar? Does anybody use package managers on Linux anymore?

Getting Java through apt-get gives you more or less the worst quality builds https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk8u-dev/2019-May/0...

You get mystery bits that haven't been put through the TCK.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#135

Post by KronisLV »

stickfigure wrote: post #128
KronisLV wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently upgrading a ~1M SLoC Java enterprise app (with regular Spring, Jetty in there, scheduled processes, PrimeFaces for web UI, REST API services, SOAP services, the whole shebang) from Java 8 to Java 11 (since 17 wasn't out when that change was approved) and it's largely proving to be a pain. Since the version of Spring is ancient and changes over to Spring Boot were also approved, now have to rewrite parts of…

It sounds like the problem is the scope creep. Do the JDK upgrade or the spring boot migration first. Yes it is tempting to do both at once but you are adding a lot of risk.

Agreed! Sadly, it wasn't my choice to make. Then again, if it's an older version of Spring, chances are that a lot of changes would be needed regardless.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#136

Post by Zababa »

shartacct wrote: post #88
matsemann wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then use Kotlin, and take advantage of the jvm and the ecosystem, and avoid basically all the stuff you listed about the java language. "no real reason" is a stupid take. I could list multiple, but a big one is that there are hundred java developers for each dotnet developer in my city. The java env is well tested and well understood, if anything one should argue why not use it instead of a hip and trendy alternative…

> take advantage of the jvm In what way? It's slower and has less features than the .NET runtime. > "no real reason" is a stupid take. I could list multiple, but a big one is that there are hundred java developers for each dotnet developer in my city. The java env is well tested and well understood, if anything one should argue why not use it instead of a hip and trendy alternative. So, your only credible excuse for…

> So, your only credible excuse for using java is inertia from boomers and middle managers refusing to adapt from the standard of the early and mid 2000s?

If you come in and freely migrate all of the Java codebases to .NET while maintaining code quality and functionalities, I'm sure many people would let you do it. If you don't understand why people stick to one language, that means that you've never worked on a big codebase, or completly ignore the business side of the developer job. In both cases, that's a lack of wisdom on your part.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#137

Post by miked85 »

aiobe wrote: post #10
iamcreasy wrote: post #6

Why its recommends against using OpenJDK builds by Oracle? Does it come with the same licensing restriction as Oracle JDK?

OpenJDK builds by Oracle are updated only for 6 months, even for LTS versions. Plus these builds are provided for limited platforms only and have no official ready-to-use Docker images.

What do Docker images have to do with a JDK decision? Build your own image if you want.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#138

Post by Zababa »

sneeeeeed wrote: post #76
shartacct wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no real reason to use java for new development in 2021.

Java is way better than .net, which nobody at all uses outside MS. Certainly not in enterprise.

> Certainly not in enterprise.

Lots of people use .NET in enterprise, I don't know where you got that impression.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#139

Post by DarkmSparks »

krzyk wrote: post #100
DarkmSparks wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is more to this now tho, because even their topline recommendation misses the fact that Temurin (anagram of runtime) only provides a small subset of tested builds you need. They are in there but easy to miss - Bellsoft actually have builds for both jdks and jres for more than mainstream x86_64. Termurin dont even have jres anymore (last time I checked) https://bell-sw.com/pages/downloads/#/java-17-current

Are JREs still a thing (they were removed from Oracle builds in JDK 9)? Those were mostly for applets or JWS. Nowadays no one keeps just one JRE in their laptop/desktop and disk sizes are in TBs so no point in saving 100 MB and lacking development tools. And in one targets containers or systems with small amount of disk jlink give more gains than JRE.

If you are distributing software based on java a 40mb jre in place of a 400mb jdk is surely preferred. You can build them yourself for each OS you target with jlink, or you can just grab the latest built and tested one from e.g. Bellsoft - but not Adoptium or Oracle.

Java has been "breaking changes" between releases to make python blush for a few years now, 17 finally looks like a worthy migration from 8.

Re: Which version of JDK should I use?

#140

Post by ogurechny »

eropple wrote: post #56
shartacct wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What reason is there to force https on a stateless static page? The content is always the same. You're just ruining caching and wasting CPU cycles.

It protects visitors on compromised networks--and that includes things like ad injectors at coffee shops that might push nasty code to them, not just people dealing with oppressive regimes and so on. It also provides some benefit around "well, that page is HTTPS, so it's more interesting"--if every page is HTTPS, the signaling value of switching to HTTPS is destroyed, and that is a good thing. HTTPS everywhere is a p…

“Specialists” drinking the Kool-Aid look most depressing. Don't you find it strange that each time each proponent believes it's important to mention a stereotypical script kiddie on a public WiFi, something that doesn't bother a lot of people at all because of they way they connect to internet, and hasn't been a common occurrence even in the days of completely broken wireless security protocols?

What is/was common is internet providers' interest in making money on personal behavioral data in the traffic they transfer. DPI boxes to passively gather statistics or actively inject ads (and even rewrite existing ads) have been offered and tested since the 2000s across the world. Scale of big ISPs would make them Google's (&Co) competitors on personal behavioral data market, and mobile ISPs would combine it with location data, too. Moreover, they would be able to use Google's own tracking cookies to track individual users instead of inventing the classification systems (either by observing them in clear text, or by injecting scripts). The security and income of web services is the real reason for the global “HTTP is deprecated, switch to HTTPS” campaign, not you and your “privacy”.

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