The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#131

Post by mattlondon » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Just don't read it - be the better person and just rise above it.

These opinions are not new - they existed before Twitter was a thing. Just now the opinions have a platform that amplifies their visibility.

As the quote goes, the only winning move is not to play.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#132

Post by beakerbreaker » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

ewindal wrote: post #107

zimpenfish wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> llegal to fire someone over a twitter mob [...] Anti-lynching laws Are you really comparing getting fired from your job to a lynching? Because one of them seems a whole lot less serious than the other...

Who told you that you can only compare things of equal severity? That would maje comparisons largely useless.

Nobody was lynched here so anti-lynching law would not apply. Given we're discussing mobs getting riled up over the wrongs of the "other", it also seems appropriate to place the actual outcome in a less exaggerated way.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#133

Post by brigandish » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #24

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

Isn't this exactly the world that free speech / pro-liberty advocates want? I don't have any power to fire someone from their job; I'm not their boss. But I do have the right to make my views about them freely known. That's my right to free speech. And I can also decide whether to patronize their business or not. That's my right to economic freedom - to not be in an authoritarian society where the government tells me…

> Isn't this exactly the world that free speech / pro-liberty advocates want?

No. The main consequence of speech that is being opposed should be… speech, not action to get that speaker's speech curtailed, whether by speech or other means.

> I can also decide whether to patronize their business or not

These people didn't have to turn up to the talk. That's not the same as cancelling a talk because someone said they don't want it to happen.

> And their boss has the right to decide whether to employ them or not > … > But if I'm making my opinion known, and their boss agrees, isn't that the intended effect of discourse?

Did MIT change its decision to host the speaker because of a well-reasoned argument - as you point out, one of the intended consequences aimed for via free speech - or was it due to some other kind of pressure?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#134

Post by civilized » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #124

civilized wrote: post #61

It is time for talented teenagers to stop going to illiberal institutions. Consider getting your education at a place with values you can respect. Mission-driven schools: this is your moment.

Trying to remember the source of the quote that basically says that whenever you try to open a "free speech" area to protect from illiberal witch hunts, you end up with a community of like 3 principled libertarians and ten thousand witches. Difficult for me to imagine some sort of "mission driven school", especially advertised as a counterpoint to elite University cancel culture, didn't just turn into just as much of…

Here are some schools that endorse the Chicago Statement on Freedom of Expression: https://www.thefire.org/chicago-statement-university-and-fac...

It's a diverse mix of state universities and a few elite private ones. No right-wing captured institutions as far as I can tell.

Being right-wing is not even a positive indicator for liberal values and support of free speech, IMO. Right wingers just cancel people for different reasons. Liberal values are not on the left-right spectrum in 2021, if they ever were.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#135

Post by refurb » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #6

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Stop listening to them? EDIT: That's especially effective since the Twitter mobs keep moving targets every couple of weeks anyway. They don't have any patience.

Precisely.

Just because you have a Twitter account doesn’t mean your ideas or opinions are well thought out, rationale or even coherent.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#136

Post by why_is_it_good » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #90

brrt wrote: post #63

If you tolerate this, then your children will be next....

My children are at no risk of having their MIT speaking gigs canceled because of their public positions on race-influenced admissions policies.

And they better not think about it, lest they think wrong and end up in the situation OP mentioned and you chose to dismiss.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#137

Post by gbrown » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

lugged wrote: post #120

gbrown wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read the article, that seems like a nonsense take. Care to explain?

I read it too, they're saying this is different because they agree with them. Pretty much every example of lecturers being cancelled in the last 5 years is for the same unrelated reasons. It's boring, so you're a fan of this one guy and suddenly it's an issue? Please.

I mean, not being super familiar with this guy outside of what is presented in the article, there does seem to be a pretty important difference between someone like Milo and an actual academic giving an academic talk. I see why some would worry about cancelling a talk by the former (despite him being utterly repugnant and bringing nothing of substance to the audience), but the latter cancellation seems worse to me.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#138

Post by q1w2 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

creata wrote: post #92

Here's what seems to be a follow-up on an MIT webpage: https://orgchart.mit.edu/node/6/letters_to_community/importa... Edit: and for what it's worth, I think many people here are too easily stirred into a frenzy based on astonishingly little information about this incident.

This letter reinforces the Atlantic article's claim that progressive Twitter mobs are cancelling anyone who disagrees with them.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#139

Post by wrycoder » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

devdas wrote: post #54

zeckalpha wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, the Paradox of Intolerance. Who cancels the cancellers? It’s almost as though we should reserve cancellation for those seeking to exclude people from society.

Ah yes, cancel those who want to cancel the intolerant. It does help to think of tolerance as a peace treaty.

Don't you mean, “Cancel those who want to cancel the tolerant.”

The post to which you responded said, “Only cancel the cancellors.”

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#140

Post by snek_case » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

beakerbreaker wrote: post #132

ewindal wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who told you that you can only compare things of equal severity? That would maje comparisons largely useless.

Nobody was lynched here so anti-lynching law would not apply. Given we're discussing mobs getting riled up over the wrongs of the "other", it also seems appropriate to place the actual outcome in a less exaggerated way.

Kind of ironic that people are getting offended over my choice of words here, but we could call these anti-mob or anti-bullying laws instead. The point remains, it might make sense to make it illegal for institutions to fire people over the call of a mob.