What is with the comments calling this a non-appology? Do they need a hair shirt to make sure the sinners really suffer? Hyperbole aside its kind of jarring reading a frank apology and ownership of actions (what they did, how it impacted others, why it was bad) that then gets dismissed entirely. I wonder what those people would consider to be sufficient? It does not seem like there is any point to a public apology. Y…
I'm sorry
131–140 of 277 posts
Re: I'm sorry
#132Earlier quoted context omitted.
> 'oh yeah, sorry. I'll try not to do it again. My bad.' This definitely should be sufficient. But hey, we are not living in that time anymore. Public condemnation is the new normal. And a response with public self-condemnation is expected from the mob. "I'm sorry" and "I apologize" is no longer sufficient. You need to go deeper and expose the evil in your soul, and condemn your self and your conspirators, and devote…
The problem is that an apology should not contain a ‘but…’
Re: I'm sorry
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
> "either assigns or contributes" That wording (from the post) is unfortunate because it is misleading, but that doesn't mean we should continue to spread the misinterpretation. Please stop conflating "project ownership" with "copyright assignment". > the CLAs shared by the contributors differ from the sample one you have linked. I got that PDF by going to https://cla.dotnetfoundation.org/ and then clicking through t…
> That wording (from the post) is unfortunate because it is misleading, but that doesn't mean we should continue to spread the misinterpretation. Please stop conflating "project ownership" with "copyright assignment". What else is there to own in an open source project? The trademarks? How many of these projects even have trademarks? > I got that PDF by going to https://cla.dotnetfoundation.org/ and then clicking thr…
Copyright assignment is extremely cumbersome and difficult. To achieve it, all copyright owners must be willing to give up their own copyright, which many organizations and many individuals are not willing (or even able) to do.
From my standpoint, it is unthinkable that the .NET Foundation would say that their contribution model is to license, and then slip copyright assignment language into an agreement on the sly. There would be hell to pay if that were the case. The contribution models, how you run the organization, etc., they're quite different.
EDIT: Mea culpa. I have found additional documentation that conflicts and reveals that there is now an an additional copyright-assignment track. See my soon-to-appear reply.
> > Project means the projects owned or managed by Contributor and listed below that is assigned to the .NET foundation hereunder.
> If this is assigning copyright to the .NET foundation, is it bad faith to not make that clearer?
That clause doesn't assign copyright. While IANAL, from my perspective copyright assignment language would be much more specific than that.
EDIT: There may be additional language later.
> the project authors are providing a different document
Yes, that's true unfortunately. I wish that the project author had provided the whole thing because that would make our discussion easier. I can't get at the actual current document because it's sent via Docusign, and I'd need to actually submit a project to the DNF to get at it.
I tried, though, because clearing this misunderstanding is important.
> What else is there to own in an open source project?
In terms of intellectual property: copyright, trademarks, and patents.
But then there is also administrative control over project resources: domains, Github organizations, possibly physical resources such as servers or test hardware, accounts at various places, upload permissions for distribution channels, occasionally bank accounts, etc.
And specifically, this conflict is about administrative control over project resources and permissions on Github.
> The trademarks? How many of these projects even have trademarks?
Well, technically few have registered trademarks, but in general you get a trademark by using it in commerce. So all of them have at least a claim on a trademark, although it may not be enforceable if there's a conflicting registered mark or if the project name is too generic.
Re: I'm sorry
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Microsoft doesn't contribute to open source software because open source software is good for the world. Microsoft contributes to open source software because Microsoft wants to sell more proprietary software and services to the open source world, as more and more developers live in that world. They realized that without significant service lock-in, people would begin to abandon things like Windows (and continue to i…
You might be right about that. But that doesn’t change the fact that good software now exists, which wouldn’t otherwise exist, and that the software is now open source, which otherwise wouldn’t be open source. In my opinion, that counts for something. I’ve long hoped that gamedev would make a similar transition. And although Unreal Engine et al are open source, it’s still not the default. So in other words, if gamede…
Actually it has done quite well. Not as widespread as some would like, but I think Free Software is doing spectacularly well. I would say nobody needs Microsoft for anything these day because there are great alternative, but they are creating some decent enterprise tools that may not have free equivalents.
Windows and Office though? I haven't needed those in 15 years, and that's because Free Software has achieved most of its goals.
Re: I'm sorry
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you read the entire post, it quickly becomes apparent why people are reacting poorly. The opening paragraph is an apology. Other parts of the post undo any goodwill that might have been garnered from the apology itself. One example: > There is a pattern that needs to be resolved. Projects might not fully understand what joining the .NET Foundation means. We share a checklist with project maintainers on project cha…
I did not get that at all. To me it sounds like she is coming clean with what she sees as the issues surrounding the project, including poor communication. I read that as, 'another problem we've seen is that people are unclear what it means to become a member of our organisation so we are working towards improving that.' I initially read her apology and thought it was likely a response to an overblown situation that…
Re: I'm sorry
#136Earlier quoted context omitted.
> 'oh yeah, sorry. I'll try not to do it again. My bad.' This definitely should be sufficient. But hey, we are not living in that time anymore. Public condemnation is the new normal. And a response with public self-condemnation is expected from the mob. "I'm sorry" and "I apologize" is no longer sufficient. You need to go deeper and expose the evil in your soul, and condemn your self and your conspirators, and devote…
The promise is "apologize and this will all go away". That's a lie. Never does. Depending on where you work, you may or may not be totally screwed, but apologizing when you have done nothing wrong changes bupkis. Why give the bullies what they want? Stand your ground: - You can cordially invite the mob to go fuck itself. Or, for a less confrontational approach: - You can ignore the mob and proceed as normal for a few…
Re: I'm sorry
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
The promise is "apologize and this will all go away". That's a lie. Never does. Depending on where you work, you may or may not be totally screwed, but apologizing when you have done nothing wrong changes bupkis. Why give the bullies what they want? Stand your ground: - You can cordially invite the mob to go fuck itself. Or, for a less confrontational approach: - You can ignore the mob and proceed as normal for a few…
People do something shitty all the time, like literally all the time. But public condemnation is the new normal. But nothing you do will prevent that from happening. Mob is just being mob. The mob mentality is spreading like a disease.
Re: I'm sorry
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That wording (from the post) is unfortunate because it is misleading, but that doesn't mean we should continue to spread the misinterpretation. Please stop conflating "project ownership" with "copyright assignment". What else is there to own in an open source project? The trademarks? How many of these projects even have trademarks? > I got that PDF by going to https://cla.dotnetfoundation.org/ and then clicking thr…
For what it's worth: while I'm not a lawyer, I'm a past ASF board member, VP Legal Affairs, and VP Incubator. Not that you should take my "argument from authority" as gospel, but that should give some perspective on why I'm focusing narrowly on the issue of copyright assignment. I've explained these issues many many times to many many projects, dealt with conflicts over administrative control analogous in some ways t…
On https://dotnetfoundation.org/projects/submit I found the following:
> Assignment and Contribution Models. The .NET Foundation uses either an assignment model or a contribution model for on-boarding new projects. Under the assignment model, a project transfers ownership of the copyright to the .NET Foundation. Under the contribution model, a project retains ownership of the copyright, but grants the .NET Foundation a broad license to the project’s code and other intellectual property. The project also confirms that the project’s submissions to .NET Foundation are its own original work (there are also instructions for any third party materials that might be included).
I regret my error.
Re: I'm sorry
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
The top comment on the apology is also an accusation of insufficient prostration. I agree that internet culture seems antithetical to forgiveness, and have no idea what can be done about it.
You might want to consider that the forced pull request has still not been reverted by this person. So an apology but no intention to undo a mistake? Does not sound very genuine in any way. Also, an apology about a PR isn't this long. This is a wall of text with a few meek words inbetween.
And I agree, a “sorry my bad” type of comment would have looked nice in the PR, but the attitude and actions in it vs the official apology, sounds like completely different people.
Re: I'm sorry
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
The top comment on the apology is also an accusation of insufficient prostration. I agree that internet culture seems antithetical to forgiveness, and have no idea what can be done about it.
You might want to consider that the forced pull request has still not been reverted by this person. So an apology but no intention to undo a mistake? Does not sound very genuine in any way. Also, an apology about a PR isn't this long. This is a wall of text with a few meek words inbetween.