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Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

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Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#131

Post by OrvalWintermute »

joemazerino wrote: post #65
distances wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ivmmeta is pseudoscientific. It should not be taken seriously by anyone. See a short analysis e.g. at https://mobile.twitter.com/gidmk/status/1422044335076306947 .

Calling an established anti-viral medicine "pseudoscientific" is just team politics.

It is probably more accurate to describe IVM as a safe antiparasitic with well-known antiviral qualities.

However, we don't always know when something has antiviral properties whether it has efficacy or not against a specific virus. That is why a number of studies is a great contributor to determining when it can be of use, or not.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#132

Post by nkozyra »

redmaverick wrote: post #12

Wonder how much of this is due to Joe Rogan. he apparently took a bunch of things and his covid is negative.

It long predates Rogan's diagnosis. A few countries used it regularly in their treatment as far back as last year, including India.

But it was more of a spaghetti as the wall thing, and it was removed from the protocol back in May.

It has been the cure-they-don't-want-you-to-know-about du juor, overtaking HQC since about March

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#133

Post by PeterisP »

beaner wrote: post #78
watwut wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That person is claiming issue is not about horse version, but about human version. He implies media spread false information when they talk about the issue.

They are. If they weren't, they'd say "People are overdosing on ivermectin by taking doses intended for Horses." Instead they call the drug itself a "horse dewormer," and make it sound like that's its exclusive use, and that it should not be taken by humans in any dose. That's false.

Well, they should not be taken by humans in any dose to try and treat respiratory problems. If your doctor gives you a prescription of ivermectin to treat some worm problems, knock yourself out, but there's nothing wrong a simple general message "do not take ivermectin just because you thing you want it" - it's a prescription drug, so use only if explicitly, personally advised by a doctor who has looked into your particular problem and decided that this is the right thing for it.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#134

Post by zepto »

tomnipotent wrote: post #108
AndrewBissell wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason you think it's inherently shitty and incompetent for a doctor to prescribe ivermectin off-label for Covid is because you've bought into the dumb culture war politicization of it. I'm not a Bill Maher fan but he made a good point when he said "ivermectin isn't a registered Republican, it's a drug." Maybe it doesn't actually work (unlike so many on the other side of this issue I am at least willing to g…

> dumb culture war politicization of it Maybe I'm a fan of science, of which there is NO evidence that Ivermectin works against COVID. It seems like maybe you're the one that bought into something. These doctors are doing nothing more than profiting off the fear of their patients, while offering no value other than what might be argued is a placebo. That doesn't stop these people from infecting others around them.

There certainly is evidence. It’s just inconclusive. There is sufficient evidence that more studies are being done.

If you are a fan of science, I’m sure you’ll acknowledge this.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#135

Post by dataflow »

john_minsk wrote: post #123
dataflow wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can see from this and other examples how the CDC lying to the public has backfired immensely. I don't see a lie in this example.

“They are effective, but doctors need them more, so please don’t hoard” is different from “they are not effective”, hence is a lie. This should be a lesson to all those corporate-like structures in public sector where they use common enterprise tactics of middle management to say things in the non-specific way so that later down the road they can cover their asses. They had to be very specific, don’t lie, simply say…

> “They are effective, but doctors need them more, so please don’t hoard” is different from “they are not effective”, hence is a lie.

No, that doesn't follow. Do you have any evidence the CDC knew this was false, and was consistently messaging to the contrary (aka not a pointer to things like 280-char tweets where everyone understands bandwidth would be limited)?

A lie requires intent to deceive, i.e. dishonesty. Not something where they're forced to summarize and strip out details, but provide the details elsewhere when they have the chance. And certainly not a genuine, honest mistake. I have yet to see evidence the CDC knew that masks are effective and yet lied about it. And nobody here has been willing to provide any evidence of that either. Just because they might have been inaccurate in their assessment of the situation, doesn't mean they were lying. Just like how, just because you say "we ran out of ketchup, can you buy some from the store?" and then discover you had some in the back of your fridge, that doesn't mean you're lying.

And btw, I don't even know what example you're talking about. If you're talking about my example like I said, at 1:32, the reporter clearly communicates "surgical masks are not that effective". And it wasn't the CDC talking either. You should really link whatever you're talking about because it doesn't seem to be this example.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#136

Post by abstractbarista »

dataflow wrote: post #102
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time, the US Surgeon General tweeted: > "Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!" There was absolutely quite a bit of false messaging on the point from authority figures.

(a) Do you call any case where someone turns out to be wrong "false messaging"? Their prior knowledge led them to believe (wrongly, but it seems to me, quite honestly) that non-N95 masks would not be effective, and they didn't have evidence to the contrary, and they very openly explained that their fear is healthcare providers not having masks, which was 100% a sincere worry any official worth their salt would have.…

They stated something as fact to influence our behavior, when they did not actually have the requisite knowledge to make such a statement at that point in time.

They should have instead said "We don't know whether they're effective yet, so don't hoard them, because doing so could cause X."

There's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know something yet.

Instead, they make commands without supporting evidence. That implies total disregard for the peoples' intelligence. Upon realizing this, trust is lost and dissenting actions increase.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#137

Post by toxik »

whiddershins wrote: post #95

What I don’t understand about ivermectin is… is the horse paste version different from the human version in any meaningful way other than concentration?

Yes, in the purity. It’s okay to give slightly contaminated medication to horses, not to humans. The human Ivermectin is purer.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#138

Post by tomnipotent »

zepto wrote: post #134
tomnipotent wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dumb culture war politicization of it Maybe I'm a fan of science, of which there is NO evidence that Ivermectin works against COVID. It seems like maybe you're the one that bought into something. These doctors are doing nothing more than profiting off the fear of their patients, while offering no value other than what might be argued is a placebo. That doesn't stop these people from infecting others around them.

There certainly is evidence. It’s just inconclusive. There is sufficient evidence that more studies are being done. If you are a fan of science, I’m sure you’ll acknowledge this.

Like all the evidence we had around the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine?

The paper from Argentina around Ivermectin is already suspected of fraud. I won't hold my breath it'll end up with good results.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#139

Post by rajin444 »

dataflow wrote: post #102
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the time, the US Surgeon General tweeted: > "Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!" There was absolutely quite a bit of false messaging on the point from authority figures.

(a) Do you call any case where someone turns out to be wrong "false messaging"? Their prior knowledge led them to believe (wrongly, but it seems to me, quite honestly) that non-N95 masks would not be effective, and they didn't have evidence to the contrary, and they very openly explained that their fear is healthcare providers not having masks, which was 100% a sincere worry any official worth their salt would have.…

A leader's most important role is to build and maintain trust.

> "Seriously people - STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!"

This could very easily have been reworded to an honest "we do not know if they are effective" instead of a definitive "they are not". You cannot in good conscience call yourself a good leader and/or scientist if you do not acknowledge the limits of your understanding.

People may not understand the science, but they understand trust. And given that no individual has the time and/or intelligence to understand the science, breaches of trust should be the end of a leader's career. They're failing in their most important duty.

Re: Doctors and pharmacists ramp up calls for Americans to stop using ivermectin

#140

Post by zepto »

tomnipotent wrote: post #138
zepto wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There certainly is evidence. It’s just inconclusive. There is sufficient evidence that more studies are being done. If you are a fan of science, I’m sure you’ll acknowledge this.

Like all the evidence we had around the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine? The paper from Argentina around Ivermectin is already suspected of fraud. I won't hold my breath it'll end up with good results.

If you were a believer in science, you’d understand that there is no connection between hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin.

Edit: you dishonestly added the following to your comment after I replied:

“The paper from Argentina around Ivermectin is already suspected of fraud. I won't hold my breath it'll end up with good results.”

For what it’s worth, I’m not referring to that paper.

But again, if you understood science, you would know better than to make assumptions about the results of a paper you have never seen.

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