Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#131

Post by yardie » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> 90% of investment firms

These must be very small meat and potatoes investment firms then. They might not have a compliance department and might not be able to justify the salary of having someone tackle FATCA requirements. I, as an American abroad primarily used the big banks (HSBC, BNP, Barkleys) because its built in to the service.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#132

Post by cmrdporcupine » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

Many of the comments here are preposterous. I am a socialist by conviction, my whole life, and strongly believe the wealthy should pay their fair share.

But being a Canadian and knowing many Americans who have come here to work -- making prosperous but not insane professional class incomes -- and still having to file with the IRS, often having to pay into the IRS (without receiving services back in the US) and having their Canadian retirement funds messed with by the IRS, I find this whole thing baffling. No other western nation does this, and it's unjust. why would this forum -- full of people in the tech industry making a good living -- try to justify this?

Put this another way: should you cross the border into Canada and take up residency here (for a job, or because your spouse lives here, or because you like it here) you will now be effectively double-taxed for the rest of your time here.

This from a country that supposedly started its war of independence over the issue of taxation without representation?

Like I said, preposterous. Glad my mother and myself never applied for the dual citizenship we could in theory be entitled to. What a curse that would be.

Yes, make the seriously wealthy pay their share. But most of the people suffering from this situation (and often trying to renounce their citizenships in many cases not able to) are your peers in your industry.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#133

Post by luffapi » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

engineer_22 wrote: post #57

papito wrote: post #9

From the bottom of my heart, fuck off . If you get blackmailed, abducted, squeezed or raided in any way, the U.S. will have the privilege of not caring. These tools accumulated massive wealth by corrupting the U.S. political system, gutting the IRS, and bringing their effective tax rate lower than most other citizens' - and it is still not enough. I guess it's a tall order to ask to keep your grubby paws away and not…

These are people with a few million in assets. Enough to retire comfortably. These are not the "Power Elite". At least, there is no evidence that these people are "Ultra-Wealthy", only that they have reached a certain threshold that the US Govt keeps track of them. And it's peaked at around 7,000 persons per year. Hardly a tidal wave of capital flight. Have you considered that this story was titled in such a way to e…

Eric Schmidt is definitely ultra-wealthy.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#134

Post by bmitc » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Edit: My question wasn’t clear, but it’s not important.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#135

Post by pedrosorio » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

aabaker99 wrote: post #112

alephnan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while simultaneously holding most of the influence. There are 20 million millionaires in the states. This is not even 10,000 people year over year with assets, not even net worth, over $2 million. This is a tiny fraction of the population, most of whom are contrarian or pursue an alternative lifestyle, given that they are living abroad. I would hardly call someone with $2 million as having outsized influenced, they…

Unless there are more than 20 million millionaires, you're talking about the top 6 percent of the wealth distribution. I wouldn't call that particular percentile "barely middle class". That term probably should be reserved for the 60th percentile, no? Middle being 60 to 40? 70 to 30? Edit: fixed my percentile thanks to child comment!

> Unless there are more than 20 million millionaires, you're talking about the top 0.6 percent of the wealth distribution

6 percent

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#136

Post by alephnan » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

You are assuming 100% of these people are moving to countries with lower taxes. That's simply not true.

In fact, countries that have high standard of living usually have equal or higher taxes than the states.

Contrary to what you may assume, especially people who have sought an alternative lifestyle abroad value value having a high standard of living, and not going to move to some shithole just because it has lower taxes.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#137

Post by Retric » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

That honestly seems quite reasonable. Citizenship comes with all sorts of obligations like getting drafted and serving on juries, taxes are simply the most obvious.

On the up side you can apparently still qualify for Social Security benefits.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#138

Post by 734129837261 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

Most people would, if they could, avoid taxes legally to the maximum of their ability.

You US folks have created this monstrosity yourselves, too. You let lobbyists (who work for the companies that the richest own) influence politicians, you allow companies to have personhood and other such nonsense.

Even the politicians you get to vote on are placed there by said lobbyists and thus the companies that pay for them.

Institutionalised, legal, and widely stimulated and motivated corruption is what causes all of this to happen. The rich make the rules, you not liking it can't be fixed because the rich decide what "fixes" are available for you to vote on.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#139

Post by luffapi » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

BrianOnHN wrote: post #92

Good riddance. "Wealthy" people contribute capital. The government can print more money to replace them at the expense of the same "wealthy" people who most likely got "wealthy" from exploitative practices opposed to conscious capitalism.

They will continue to cash in from the systems of exploration they’ve already created.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#140

Post by fourthwaveska » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

keewee7 wrote: post #82

fourthwaveska wrote: post #44

By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas. We sold all of our US property last year; and now we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona to get our Golden Visas. Our goal is to get citizenship and access to the EU then renouncing my US citizenship. It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are bei…

Spain is a NATO country involved in many American wars in the past 30 years. If you oppose US wars and hegemony you should have followed Edward Snowden and moved to a country that actually oppose American influence in the world.

Re: Nato, fair point. There is still a difference between being bullied into submission to American hegemony and being part of the us empire.

I really, really detest cold weather and drunk people, both of which Russia has in abundance. Russia and China are just as offensive to my own moral compass as the USA.

Once we attain citizenship I’m going to try to convince my family to move to Esbjerg, at least for a few years.