NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#131

Post by cratermoon » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

polote wrote: post #25

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus

Just FYI, a vaccinated person, like anyone else, can only transmit the virus if they have a symptomatic breakthrough case.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#132

Post by creato » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

wdhilliard wrote: post #13

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

> My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data.

This is not "real data", it's not even clear what your number refers to. "Life is safe"?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#133

Post by afavour » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #129

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one.

Literally not true. Kids under 12 are not able to be vaccinated, which puts a limit on the activities they and their families can do. If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit.

> It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe).

Not really. There were some minor protests and then an untick in vaccination rate. As someone living in NYC right now I really can't see this being met with violence.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#134

Post by Alex3917 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

bern4444 wrote: post #62

wdhilliard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). This can be downloaded as an image, into apple wallet etc. For those who chose not to, they can stick to carrying around their vaccine card (just as…

> Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc).

Only available to those who got vaccinated in New York. And given that the NYC border is all of a couple hundred yards from New Jersey and 10 miles from Connecticut, there are tons of people who either live in the city and got vaccinated elsewhere, or else who live elsewhere but are in the city on a daily basis.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#135

Post by closeparen » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #11

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

Requiring me to consume a novel virus in order to live my life is morally wrong. You're making me into a test subject for the bats.

The whole point of civil society is to solve coordination problems and deliver public goods like sanitation and health. If it can't accomplish something as basic as vaccination then it is blatantly unfit for purpose. Absolutely, jettison it! The truly crazy idea here is that we would retain and bear the costs of a civil society which is so incompetent at its bread and butter job.

We don't leave the water mains to gush into the street, we don't leave the sewers to back up into the toilets, and we don't leave the viruses to circulate in the bars.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#136

Post by Daishiman » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #114

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. Vaccinated people spreading the Delta variant amongst each other is not going to do that. Unvaccinated people getting sick will.

> The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. This is clearly not the goal -- there have been no additions to hospital capacity since the pandemic started in earnest 17 months ago.

This is definitely not the case where I live. Existing units were shifted, capacity was reserved, some makeshift isolation units built on containers were purchased. At any rate, that is a substantial cost to build out and maintain.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#137

Post by gr1zzlybe4r » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

This is the point where we have to stop making trade offs of choice and liberty in the name of "security". Give the public open data about the effectiveness of the vaccine and then let people make their own decisions about what to do. The moralization and judgement about the vaccine has become ludicrous.

If you're scared to do things around others even if you're vaccinated, then that's fine. We cannot accept a societal change towards mandating choices for people. It will be very, very hard for us to walk that back.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#138

Post by YooLi » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #14

wdhilliard wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

Great reply, thank you. I don't want to get into a long argument, but a lot of what you say hinges on that 40% number. I'd like to know what that refers to. My reply to that 40% number: I thought that vaccines made you something like 20x less likely to end up in the hospital from coronavirus (widely cited as 95% protective.) And that unvaccinated people spread at 5x the rate of the vaccinated ones. https://www.nature…

"To answer your last question (presumably non-rhetorical) I worry about unvaccinated people allowing for mutations via community spread..."

Then you also should worry about Antibody-Dependent Enhancement (ADE).

"...as well as getting sick when they didn't have to, hurting themselves while taking up healthcare resources in the process."

Like obese people?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#139

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #133

timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Literally not true. Kids under 12 are not able to be vaccinated, which puts a limit on the activities they and their families can do. If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit. > It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe). Not really. There were some minor protests…

How could a family under 12 possibly know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated unless the restaurant only allows a single party to have a member under 12?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#140

Post by tomp » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

4) You oppose tyranny. People should be free to make their own choices. By going out unvaccinated, I'm not putting anyone in danger, except those who choose to be endangered (not isolating / sheltering at home, unmasked, unvaccinated).

5) You oppose discrimination. I'm immune but not vaccinated. Where's my immunity certificate?