Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed that it’s too scarce on details. The obvious problem here is that UBI only makes sense if you take those other programs out (no public healthcare, no public pensions), but it will be unthinkable for most europeans to loose those. There’s no way to sell a change that requires people to take that amount of personal responsibility, especially when they’ve enjoyed life without them. I also hate that what was a goo…
UBI would replace a lot of existing social security programs, pensions and health care are jone of those candidates.
European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
131–140 of 155 posts
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#132Most extant forms of welfare exist because at the time of their creation they allowed some group of politicans to buy the votes of some subset of the population. In order to reliably capture those votes, the welfare system has to represent a substantive transfer of wealth from whoever is getting screwed to whoever is selling their vote. From this angle, the problem with UBI is it doesn't really represent a clear win…
Germany got universal healthcare in the 1800's while ruled by a monarchy.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#133Where do I sign against this? This is just FIRE without the money. Did you read the actual proposal? They explicitly want to give a middle class life to everyone, with zero obligation from the individual. This is complete insanity. Kids will make zero plans to use school to make themselves useful. Kids are idiots (past me included), and if they knew they had the option to do nothing productive, then that's what a ver…
You end up with people doing things because they want to. Lots of people do lots of things for reasons other than money and we’re heading towards an economy where living a middle class life doesn’t require everyone to work. People will run factories and do science and make art without just needing to do it to eat. Humans before civilization didn’t work anywhere near so hard to survive as people today. Go look at gith…
Currently people decide how much work they are willing to do - want more stuff, earn more money to buy more stuff
We are already seeing the disaster of Social Security benefits not being enough to fund retirement - how will this work when people don’t even work to save for retirement
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#134Earlier quoted context omitted.
Taxes are less destructive than radically restructuring the entire economy, which most UBI advocates seem to want to do. Median household income in the US is significantly higher than any EU country except Luxembourg, Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I think most Americans who complain incessantly about how "third world" America is view Europe through rose-colored glasses. Any third-world aspects of the US (which do exist) a…
The real idea behind the UBI is to "radically restructure" the economy in a freedom-promoting direction, closer to something like the US today than current policy in the EU.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#135Earlier quoted context omitted.
Freedom of movement in the EU is conditional on you contributing to the economy; if you move just for the benefits, you will be kicked out (in theory)
What about asylum seekers and war refugees?
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#136[flagged]
Well, in the U.S. we're practically out of capitalist ways to subjugate people to the point that we have people being paid pennies an hour to work in overcrowded, for-profit, prisons. Likewise, one of the biggest, and most brutal, prison systems in the world, which just so happens to be disproportionally full of people who's ancestors were slaves. So, let's try some new forms of subjugation at least as you'd have to…
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
The initiative is apparently to introduce “basic incomes”, plural, which is presumably determined based on local economic circumstances. Not sure how that reduces “regional disparities” and achieves “territorial cohesion”, though.
All that will happen is people will pretend to live in rich expensive countries and actually live in cheaper countries. I already see this all the time with benefits.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own. (Thats the libertarian argument when it comes to everything else privatized, e.g. roads, no?)
>If you don't like the inflation of the governments currency, just build your own So crypto? Besides, it's not really an opt-out because you're still obligated to pay taxes, and network effects make it very hard for you to actually opt out.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
You end up with people doing things because they want to. Lots of people do lots of things for reasons other than money and we’re heading towards an economy where living a middle class life doesn’t require everyone to work. People will run factories and do science and make art without just needing to do it to eat. Humans before civilization didn’t work anywhere near so hard to survive as people today. Go look at gith…
What I don’t get is how can anyone else decide how much UBI I need to do what I want to do, art/science/sports? Currently people decide how much work they are willing to do - want more stuff, earn more money to buy more stuff We are already seeing the disaster of Social Security benefits not being enough to fund retirement - how will this work when people don’t even work to save for retirement
If it's enough to enable you to do what you want without working, then it's enough. If it's not you find a way to get more.
There are a lot of problems with people in tough situations where their outcomes are made worse by having to make bad choices. People accept abusive living or working situations, suffer through anxieties and trauma because it's a choice between an awful situation and going hungry and homeless. A whole lot of people are wage slaves. The "option" of working, where to work, and to accept situations is only an illusion because the alternative is much worse.
Give people UBI instead of difficult to navigate social programs which don't guarantee support and you have to be an expert to navigate well and you solve a lot of problems.
People living on the street are expensive to society and not in some abstract way. People have less lifetime value to society because they are forced to accept their current situation and don't have the resources to have job mobility or can't afford to put themselves in a better living situation. People also treat jobs like they are forced to do them. A workforce that is there by choice performs a lot better, gets treated a lot better, and has better outcomes for customers, employees, and in general everyone.
Social security wasn't meant to fund retirement, it's a safety net to prevent the elderly who can no longer reasonably work from pushing way past their limits or starving. It wasn't meant to fund your expensive suburb lifestyle. It isn't luxury, but indeed you can live off of social security but it requires choices that lots of people don't want to make.
Re: European Citizen's Initiative for UBI
#140That logo of money changing hands makes a bad impression IMHO. It made me laugh, but I doubt that's their goal. It seems like self-parody, though I'm sure it's not.