Stockfish 14 • Hacker News Board

Re: Stockfish 14

#131

Post by mewpmewp2 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:02 AM UTC

knuthsat wrote: post #130

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd that it would be 1 out of 6 or 7, because when high elo streamers like Hikaru or Chessbrah are doing speed runs, they very often go on a 100 win streak, which sounds exceedingly unlikely if the odds of facing an engine user would be 1 out of 6/7. An engine user would definitely beat them, unless they were using it sparingly of course, which can be, but I don't think it would be that obvious for you in this c…

I guess the problem is that most users that play with an engine don't play bullet/blitz. I do meet a lot of engine players on 3 minute blitz but then I just do very fast bullet moves and all of a sudden I'm losing with a 90 second advantage that cannot be recovered if the user persists on playing with an engine.

Maybe, but there are also few rapid "speed" runs, like from Daniel Naroditsky, while he has also faced cheaters, it doesn't seem 1 out of 7.

And Daniel Naroditsky definitely would have good internal cheating detection even when the user does it sparingly, as he can basically understand most lower rated opponent moves, and if it seems too good for this rating, he can know this from just few moves.

Check Daniel's rapid speed run account: https://www.chess.com/member/ohmylands

145 wins and 3 losses. The 3 losses had, were lost purposely, if you look here in 3 or 4 moves with 5 accuracy, for whatever reason (to drop ELO?). https://www.chess.com/games/archive/ohmylands?gameOwner=othe...

If there were 1 out of 7 opponents using an engine, he would never have 145 wins against 0 losses.

And again for bullet and blitz there are also quite many examples with 100W to 0L.

If you'd look at all the speed run videos Daniel has done, it definitely doesn't seem 1 out of 7.

Daniel also posts all the times he's facing a cheater to youtube, same with Chessbrah and others as it makes for a good content, good views as people are always interested in seeing a GM playing against a cheater.

Re: Stockfish 14

#132

Post by cout » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

wohfab wrote: post #103

I am not too familiar with the pro chess world nor the AI chess world. But did anybody try yet to make the AI always try to achieve a draw?

Do you mean like Commander Data played Kolrami in Strategema?

Re: Stockfish 14

#133

Post by kristofferc » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #119

vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

It's odd that it would be 1 out of 6 or 7, because when high elo streamers like Hikaru or Chessbrah are doing speed runs, they very often go on a 100 win streak, which sounds exceedingly unlikely if the odds of facing an engine user would be 1 out of 6/7. An engine user would definitely beat them, unless they were using it sparingly of course, which can be, but I don't think it would be that obvious for you in this c…

Even against engines, a pro player will often win due to the other player running out of time due to the time loss in every move from copying the engine. You often see the game being slightly equal with the pro player slowly falling behind but then as the time starts to run out for the cheater they completely fall apart.

Re: Stockfish 14

#134

Post by mewpmewp2 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

kristofferc wrote: post #133

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's odd that it would be 1 out of 6 or 7, because when high elo streamers like Hikaru or Chessbrah are doing speed runs, they very often go on a 100 win streak, which sounds exceedingly unlikely if the odds of facing an engine user would be 1 out of 6/7. An engine user would definitely beat them, unless they were using it sparingly of course, which can be, but I don't think it would be that obvious for you in this c…

Even against engines, a pro player will often win due to the other player running out of time due to the time loss in every move from copying the engine. You often see the game being slightly equal with the pro player slowly falling behind but then as the time starts to run out for the cheater they completely fall apart.

But those pros will usually make some sort of subtle (because they don't want to openly, straight up accuse unless chess.com has actually banned the opponent after) comment that is clear they think they are playing against a cheater, but the odds are definitely not 1 out of 7. I have been addicted to YouTube chess videos for quite a while now...

Re: Stockfish 14

#135

Post by chki » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:17 AM UTC

vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

At what rating do you play? Around 1200 on chess.com? I don't see cheating as a big problem online for two reasons but I only play on lichess, not on chess.com.

First of all it's not that bad to play against a cheater once in a while. If you compare it with other games, playing against an engine is a huge disadvantage but will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. You are still playing chess, but against a superhuman opponent. You don't want to play against the computer but it's not as bad as the other player abusing a glitch in the game.

Secondly, I'm guessing that cheaters will mainly play at the entry level strength (1200 on chess.com) and a bit above that. If you are seriously cheating you will be caught very quickly. So maybe if you change your rating you might encounter less cheaters.

Edit: I just looked at your comment history to find out what your rating is and apparently you are playing (for an online game) with extremely long time controls? That's probably the reason why you are encountering many cheaters. The player pool for long online games is much much smaller, so you will automatically have more cheaters who just recently signed up for the game.

Re: Stockfish 14

#136

Post by phonebucket » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:23 AM UTC

fsiefken wrote: post #113

What would be the added value of an average and aspiring chess player like me to play against Stockfish 14 instead of one of he previous versions? I feel I'll never challenge the maximum capacity of such an engine.

> What would be the added value of an average and aspiring chess player like me to play against Stockfish 14 instead of one of he previous versions? I feel I'll never challenge the maximum capacity of such an engine.

I do not see chess engines as good sparring partners, but rather as tools for effective chess exploration.

The nice thing about these newer engines is that they are starting to be useful tools to explore more sacrificial and unbalanced positions which are really fun to get over the board against humans.

Finding these ideas with the help of a computer gives a competitive edge against other humans, as well as helping discover interesting corners in this vast game.

Re: Stockfish 14

#137

Post by ThomasCM » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

johtso wrote: post #120

ThomasCM wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone is looking for a way to merge games from lichess.org and chess.com: I'm developing a website where you can link your accounts to view stats for all of your games. It's free and currently in Beta: https://www.chessmonitor.com/ Here is an example for the current world champion: https://www.chessmonitor.com/u/kcc58R9eeGY09ey5Rmoj

I've been wishing someone would make something like this! Always frustrated me that tools like aimchess and openingtree only allow you to look at the two sources separately.. supposedly, at least in aimchess's case, the reason being that the rating systems are different. How do you unify ratings? Edit: ah I see you don't, makes sense I guess. Might be interesting to have them both on the same graph even if the y axis…

As you say, I currently don't. In the future I might check the correlation between chess.com/lichess (when enough users register). Then I should be able to even calculate the chess.com rating from a lichess rating and vice versa.

But there are many other features I want to implement first. I'm currently more focused on the statistics part than on the chess.com/lichess relation.

Re: Stockfish 14

#138

Post by cout » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:42 AM UTC

bscphil wrote: post #118

zucker42 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that AlphaZero will presumably never be publicly available, I think you might be interested in TCEC which has fair fights between Stockfish and LeelaChessZero (which Stockfish has won recently).

> I think you might be interested in TCEC which has fair fights between Stockfish and LeelaChessZero This is pretty questionable in my judgment, actually. TCEC's GPU hardware is 4x Nvidia V100 data center class GPUs, with a pretty powerful processor to boot. A quick search suggests that ONE of these will run you close to $10k, so we're talking about an all-in system worth mid five figures. Meanwhile, the CPU hardware…

I'm inclined to agree. I am more impressed by an engine that plays well in limited hardware than one that plays well on faster/more expensive hardware.

This is one of the reasons Core War was so intriguing; all the programs battling it out were running on the same hardware, each given an even slice of compute time. To win, you must then find ways to do the same amount of work in less time, while keeping your footprint small.

When the day comes (and I think it will, if our civilization lasts long enough) that a computer finally "solves" chess, it will be a momentous achievement, but ultimately boring.

Re: Stockfish 14

#139

Post by MaxBarraclough » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

eertami wrote: post #115

madflame991 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you figure out they're using an engine? Are there obvious human moves and AI moves?

Sometimes yes, computers play a certain way and make moves that simply aren't intuitive to humans, especially not lower rated players. However the most obvious cheaters are more easily given away by time between moves. When they take the same time between every move whether it be a deep positional move or an obvious recapture, you can be quite sure something fishy is going on. Sometimes they can have literally 1 lega…

> Sometimes they can have literally 1 legal move and still take 10 seconds to find it.

Perhaps a nit-pick: they need to discover the legal move, and discover that no other moves are possible, right? As a rather basic chess player myself, I can imagine I might spend some time on this depending on the situation.

Re: Stockfish 14

#140

Post by V-2 » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 9:52 AM UTC

chki wrote: post #135

vfc1 wrote: post #107

I feel like I've been playing against it a lot in chess.com, with the tremendous amount of cheating that is going on online, every 1 out of 6 or 7 games is an engine user (I know because I report them, and they get banned). It's great to have a better engine, but I feel that would benefit the most the online chess community is not a better engine, but an open source cheat detection system, if that's even possible. I…

At what rating do you play? Around 1200 on chess.com? I don't see cheating as a big problem online for two reasons but I only play on lichess, not on chess.com. First of all it's not that bad to play against a cheater once in a while. If you compare it with other games, playing against an engine is a huge disadvantage but will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. You are still playing chess, but agains…

> If you compare it with other games, playing against an engine is a huge disadvantage but will not fundamentally change the structure of the game. You are still playing chess, but against a superhuman opponent

It wastes your time. Playing against a human is a different experience. If you actually wanted to practice against an engine, you would do so knowingly. With some possible benefits such as takebacks etc. (since computer is not a rival, just a training tool).

It wastes your rating points - if you play rated games. Obviously not everyone does, or cares about their online rating; but I do to an extent. For one, while rating isn't a goal in and of itself, it's still a convenient form of tracking my progress, and cheaters distort this measure.

Finally, it wastes your nerves. However insignificant this may be in the scheme of things, I think that most people still dislike being cheated or lied to (in any way or form) simply out of principle, and find that frustrating.