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Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

nytimes.com

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Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#131

Post by seanmcdirmid »

pkphilip wrote: post #122
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By destabilizing and ousting democratically elected leaders around the world and replacing them with our puppets El Saud was put in place as rulers of Saudi Arabia by the British, not the Americans.

US has done "regime change" in many countries replacing elected officials with warlords/monarchs/dictators etc. Consider Mossadegh in Iran - an elected, secular politician who was replaced to put Shah - a monarch, in power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh Then, of course, all across Latin America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Yes, but the linked story was about Saudi Arabia, not Iran or Latin America.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#132

Post by reducesuffering »

pvaldes wrote: post #124
Paradigma11 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The russians by indiscriminately killing 1.5 million ppl so that only the hard core extremists survived?

Nope. Try again.

You mean Pakistan. US provided some weapons to mujahideen earlier in countering the soviets and Communism, aligning with my previous statement about "classical liberal enlightenment values." Once they had taken over Afghanistan, the US might have mistakenly thought they would be better than alternatives, but that ended quickly. Then:

"During their rule from 1996 to 2001, the Taliban and their allies committed massacres against Afghan civilians, denied UN food supplies to 160,000 starving civilians and conducted a policy of scorched earth, burning vast areas of fertile land and destroying tens of thousands of homes."[0]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#133

Post by SkyMarshal »

drewcoo wrote: post #10
SkyMarshal wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, many US citizens hate it too. It's stupid both to privatize the military, and to provide military training to repressive authoritarian regimes. America and our democratic allies spent half a century fighting totalitarianism, only to turn around and treat the post-Cold War "peace dividend" as carte-blance to sell out everything we had just finished fighting for. Now authoritarianism is…

> spent half a century fighting totalitarianism By destabilizing and ousting democratically elected leaders around the world and replacing them with our puppets? Or do you mean fighting those puppets when they became inconvenient? I suspect what happened is not the history you think it is.

>By destabilizing and ousting democratically elected leaders around the world and replacing them with our puppets? Or do you mean fighting those puppets when they became inconvenient?

I suspect what happened is not the history you think it is.

I hate justifying the US's behavior in this regard, but all such critiques need to at least be context-aware.

The USSR was attempting to spread a system of totalitarian social, economic and thought control world wide. At the time, almost everything by comparison was a lesser of two evils. In opposing their efforts, anyone who also opposed the USSR, be it a European Democracy or a third world strongman, became a US ally. Anything to thwart the spread of the USSR's variant of Communism. Supporting strongmen was ugly and unpleasant, but those were also desperate times.

The USSR was expanding rapidly and adding satellite states left and right. Any strongman who 1) opposed the USSR, and 2) who was strong enough to maintain control of their country despite USSR attempts to destabilize and gain proxy control of it, was a potential valuable ally in the greater contest. Sometimes the strongmen were the only ones in a given country who could meet both criteria, and the US had to work with was available. Ugly, but c'est realpolitik.

Though I'm not sure Iran can be justified even under that framework. Fomenting a coup in a country with a democratically elected government and liberalizing society just so we can take their oil instead of buying it at market rates is unjustifiable, even in a Cold War context. Their oil could potentially tip the military balance of power, but surely an alternative to a coup was some kind of oil-for-military-aid treaty with a fellow Democracy.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#134

Post by kinghajj »

rjzzleep wrote: post #68
baybal2 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is keeping nice with the Saudi family so important? Why does the US government bend over backwards to cover up for them? Because they spawn outfits who ram airplanes into skyscrapers. I see no logic in this, but some "expert geopolitical strategists" do. Same with Israel, sinks USS Liberty, and then people on the hill go orgasmic, because "higher meaning" — whatever that means. A simpler explanation which seems…

One of the teachers at a major Israeli military university claims that Israel is intentionally acting like a mad dog i.e. willing to take down the rest of the world with them should they go down, and that most European capitols are a target for their airforce. Whether that's rhetoric or reality, I don't think anyone intends to find out.[0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/sep/21/israelandthepa... https://en…

> willing to take down the rest of the world with them should they go down

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Samson_Option:_Israel%27s_...

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#135

Post by SkyMarshal »

dragonwriter wrote: post #129
SkyMarshal wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing we Americans really need to learn is that Capitalism does not necessarily bring Democracy. It's very possible to have a capitalistic economy under an authoritarian regime, with multiple historical examples. But after the Cold War ended, America/ns conflated Capitalism with Democracy, thinking they are one and the same, and that if we could bring bring the former to authoritarian nations, the latter would in…

> One thing we Americans really need to learn is that Capitalism does not necessarily bring Democracy And after that, we need to learn that capitalism does not only “not necessarily bring democracy”, but that capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with and limits realization of democracy (but less so than, say, feudalism); the transition from relatively pure capitalism to the modern mixed economy in the developed W…

Yes, one of the biggest problems is extreme wealth concentration, combined with private cradle-to-grave funding of politicians, combined a with plurality/first-past-the-post voting system.

When 1% of the country can determine who gets to run for, and stay in, office, and which political parties are viable and which are marginalized, then such a Democracy is flawed at best and doesn't always represent the will or interests of most people.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#136

Post by _jujw »

viro wrote: post #126
_jujw wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The facts are collectivism basically requires oppression. and those governments would just murder you if you didn't like it. So how about no we won't stop.

Sure thing. Factual existential constraints totally don’t apply to a, your, „free“ capitalist society. Great to have choice, if you can’t afford any, eh? Seriously, your comment is exactly what I am talking about. I can’t even fathom your... Okay this will get ranty!

Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profitable“. Ebola vaccine anyone? Tuberculosis? Cobalt exploitation? Climate change. Peak phosphorus. Pollution. How many annual death in the US are preventable with a better welfare system? I shiver when privileged Americans talk about social darwinism like it’s a good thing, and it makes me sick that you celebrate videos of people being generous to some poor fucks on the streets. Aww, he bought him shoes! Is it the projection into the imbalance of power? One day being the one to let another live? And GoFundMe campaigns for cancer treatment… W.T.F. Maybe I am missing some degrees of freedom those people indulge in, or maybe…

Monetary profit is not a metric for human welfare, no matter your narrative need for it to be. If you put systemic pressure on profit, you won’t select for prosperity and our collective future‘s benefit, but optimize for - can you guess? - monetary profit. Your economic dogma is called overfitting. Don’t mix up correlation and causality, when bringing up stats about global developments. That’s just bad science and you should know better, with the best education system in the world. Or is that an „anyone, but not everyone“ kinda thing too? Or did you sign an NQA to get the crippling credit for your degree? Sorry, what do I know about those things being oppressed by collectivized European education… Funny how not being 100k in debt kinda gives you the illusion of freedom. Like choosing a job I like, over one which frees me of that debt. Or maybe I just travel a bit, maybe to America, and educate my self on real freedom. Working can wait, what’s more important than understanding freedom?

Most academic economists don’t believe in the whole unregulated free market fantasy, anymore. For quite some time actually. That’s an American culture thing, believe it or not. Turns out, humans are not really rational actors. Who would have thought? Don’t trust me, tho, look it up, or ask economists (real ones, not some tech bro bitcoin investors): Most markets can’t regulate shit. And please while your at it, ask sociologists about 'freedom' and 'oppression'.

Really tho, have you ever allowed yourself a critical take on capitalism? Open outcome? Without defaulting to „Nice in theory, but communism…“?

I dare you, fellow human <3

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#137

Post by viro »

_jujw wrote: post #136
viro wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts are collectivism basically requires oppression. and those governments would just murder you if you didn't like it. So how about no we won't stop.

Sure thing. Factual existential constraints totally don’t apply to a, your, „free“ capitalist society. Great to have choice, if you can’t afford any, eh? Seriously, your comment is exactly what I am talking about. I can’t even fathom your... Okay this will get ranty! Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profita…

> Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profitable“

Do truly not see the difference between the government making the active choice that you die vs someone not producing free labor for you to exploit.

Which EU country are you from? You guys have a habit of trying to brush ur issues under the rug wether its homelessness or massive Antiziganism.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#138

Post by SkyMarshal »

_jujw wrote: post #136
viro wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The facts are collectivism basically requires oppression. and those governments would just murder you if you didn't like it. So how about no we won't stop.

Sure thing. Factual existential constraints totally don’t apply to a, your, „free“ capitalist society. Great to have choice, if you can’t afford any, eh? Seriously, your comment is exactly what I am talking about. I can’t even fathom your... Okay this will get ranty! Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profita…

>Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of.

It's not even close to the combination of mass purges and economic failure-driven mass starvation under the Communists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_...

>It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profitable“. Ebola vaccine anyone? Tuberculosis? Cobalt exploitation? Climate change. Peak phosphorus. Pollution. How many annual death in the US are preventable with a better welfare system?

Agree with all of the above, no argument there.

>I shiver when privileged Americans talk about social darwinism like it’s a good thing,

Agreed, it's the ultimate form of self-back-patting complacency.

>And GoFundMe campaigns for cancer treatment…

This is certainly a modern absurdity and indictment of US healthcare. I suspect single payer would be a net savings on healthcare for society, along with some reforms like requiring healthcare providers to publish prices for procedures and services, instead of having some back office financial engineer figuring out different prices for different patients based on how much he can squeeze out of their insurance plans.

>Most academic economists don’t believe in the whole unregulated free market fantasy, anymore.

After the deregulation of the 90s, and resulting wealth concentration, instability, and resulting Global Financial Crisis, more and more Americans don't believe it anymore either. In hindsight, the post-Great Depression Glass-Steagal regulations seem to have effectively applied the generally desirable principles of decentralization and separation of concerns to the financial system. It would probably be a net win for most of society to reinstate them.

All that said, as problematic as capitalism can be, let's not be in too much rush to forget how much worse other alternatives have been and are.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_of_European_Memory_an...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Communism_Memorial_...

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#139

Post by _jujw »

viro wrote: post #137
_jujw wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure thing. Factual existential constraints totally don’t apply to a, your, „free“ capitalist society. Great to have choice, if you can’t afford any, eh? Seriously, your comment is exactly what I am talking about. I can’t even fathom your... Okay this will get ranty! Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profita…

> Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profitable“ Do truly not see the difference between the government making the active choice that you die vs someone not producing free labor for you to exploit. Which EU country are you from? You guys have a habit of trying to brush ur issues under the rug wether its homel…

Germany.

And yes, racism is a problem in Germany too. As is the bureaucratic barrier of state welfare for people with mental health issues, especially schizophrenia.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#140

Post by _jujw »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #138
_jujw wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure thing. Factual existential constraints totally don’t apply to a, your, „free“ capitalist society. Great to have choice, if you can’t afford any, eh? Seriously, your comment is exactly what I am talking about. I can’t even fathom your... Okay this will get ranty! Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profita…

>Capitalism has all the murders and atrocities you can think of. It's not even close to the combination of mass purges and economic failure-driven mass starvation under the Communists. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_... >It’s just not attributable to a single entity, but hidden behind ideas like „not profitable“. Ebola vaccine anyone? Tuberculosis? Cobalt exploitation? Climate change. Pea…

I am not down playing Stalin‘s and Mao‘s genocides. Nor do I advocate for „communism“.

Just pointing out how capitalism isn’t exactly free of horrors, but they are hard to measure. E.g. tuberculosis claiming 1.5 million lives each year, but not in the west, so there is very little done about it. Or HIV.

The thing is we are not comparing individual countries but ideologies here. And capitalism fails those deceased for economic reasons. It’s easy to overlook.

You can mix capitalism and collectivism, as most countries did. It’s not black and white.

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