Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#131

Post by satellite2 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:37 AM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #99

As usual the article is almost exclusively concerned with market capitalization as an indicator of economic success. Countries like Germany are dominated by small and middle-class, family owned business. 'Big corporate' is indeed more successful in the US or China but it's just one model to manage an economy and I don't think it's that great. One of the most important points is also buried at the end of the article >…

Exactly, all else being equal this article actually makes me want to invest in a European total market index.

It's basically the only continent currently which have an acceptable price earning ratio.

Even if it's true that American whales had 10 years of exeptional growth, they are priced as if they will be able to have the same growth for the next 10 years.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#132

Post by contriban » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

devoutsalsa wrote: post #112

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Speaking of frictionless employment labor movement… In the USA I once called in sick on a Monday & was retroactively fired the previous Friday.

It depends, were you hired the previous Thursday?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#133

Post by dv_dt » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

TMWNN wrote: post #98

oneplane wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, people here don't tend to go bankrupt and lose their house, healthcare (ironically) and life (from a social aspect) in general when they don't have a perfect health. They don't have to hide their state of wellbeing from their employer in the hope of not getting fired, and they don't have to worry about living on the street because they don't have a job for a bit. Businesses are fun and all, but in…

>On the other hand, people here don't tend to go bankrupt and lose their house, healthcare (ironically) and life (from a social aspect) in general when they don't have a perfect health Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0... >. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that on…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6366487/

Here is a different take from a newer paper.

> The majority (58.5%) “very much” or “somewhat” agreed that medical expenses contributed, and 44.3% cited illness-related work loss; 66.5% cited at least one of these two medical contributors—equivalent to about 530 000 medical bankruptcies annually.

Really though it suggests the US has both a medical bankruptcy problem as well as a missing safety net problem. I know I’m seriously thinking about leaving to avoid a likely major medical event killing my net worth in later life.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#134

Post by contriban » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:50 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #80

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

I can confirm with the anecdote of an acquaintance in the EU. Nothing fancy. Just a hair salon. He was complaining about the authorities coming down to inspect it, looking for the smallest details to fine him. Sign was the wrong size, it wasn't illuminated the right way. Something about serving tea. It seemed absurd to me. On the other hand, it was a nice place to get a haircut.

Can confirm. My parents own a restaurant in Italy and if the authorities come it’s a € 2000/3000 fine for sure.

For a small seasonal business that’s substantial.

For example if you give a receipt and the customer misplaces it on the way out and can’t find anymore, you’re liable for tax evasion. Never mind that the POS has its own registry they can check. For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t tax you.”

When the restaurant was opened about 20 years ago, all sorts of departments came to check it out and suggest whatever ridiculous change.

Food safety in Italy however is probably among the best in the world due to this.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#135

Post by ouchithurtsma » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

devoutsalsa wrote: post #112

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Speaking of frictionless employment labor movement… In the USA I once called in sick on a Monday & was retroactively fired the previous Friday.

Companies should be able to fire as they like. They ain't your caretakers. Workers have to be prepared to lose their job any day, people gotta be responsible for their own life? edit: Are the leftists flagging all my comments or what. Am I not allowed to speak my opinion anymore? What happened to HN

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#136

Post by ouchithurtsma » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:53 AM UTC

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #69

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> general negative attitudes, poor work ethic Citations needed as to how they’re significantly worse in Europe than the US. Perhaps they’re simply smart enough not to work hard for someone else’s benefit. > freedom of movement The only negative (at least in a strictly US context between the states) is that it forces issues that the Constitution says are the domain of the states into problems that only the Federal gov…

Europeans are negative with poor work ethic because we're exploited by the government. There is no point in working hard, you don't get anything out of it. Laziness is rewarded, do the math, check the numbers, they dont lie.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#137

Post by ouchithurtsma » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:55 AM UTC

nodemaker wrote: post #90

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Hmm so 1) the corporate tax rate and other tax benefits in many EU countries is much lower than the US (I imagine you must have heard of US companies using their European operations to dodge us taxes) 2) The quality of labor you can hire is generally higher in europe (for example its common knowledge that facebook london has better engineers) I think what the us has is access to venture capital which i agree is diffi…

Actual tax rate dont matter, the US system allows you to easily not pay any or very little, compared to Europe. Tax benefits are very little. Please show me a company in the US that pays 25% Corp tax + all the other stuff you have to pay in most European countries.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#138

Post by GiorgioG » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:58 AM UTC

poopypoopington wrote: post #129

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Lack of national healthcare really puts a damper on free labor movement in the US. You want to start a company but also have health insurance for your family? That'll be $12,000 with a massive deductible... Gets in the way of a lot of would be entrepreneurs

As much as I'd like to agree (I am pro-national healthcare for the US) - if you don't have $20,000 (let's say that covers your annual premiums & deductible) - you sure as heck don't have the funds to quit your job and become a full-time entrepreneur.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#139

Post by jessedhillon » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #116

jessedhillon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not familiar with the wealth situation in Scandinavia, but I just want to point out: what matters is the numbers of millionaires/billionaires created, not just the number existing. For example, these higher numbers could be leftover nobles or aristocracy. Also, it's a pretty unconvincing comparison to pick a small population country to benchmark the US against.

Surveys of some eu nations rank them as friendly for business creation - Sweden Denmark and Switzerland rank pretty high. Universal healthcare at half the cost of the US and built into, but independent of your taxes is pretty nice for starting businesses. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/open-for-business...

All of which is an entirely separate set of points from the point you were making about the number of billionaires.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#140

Post by mannerheim » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #63

alanbernstein wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That aligns with the Steve jobs unicorn story; a more even society sacrifices the extreme high outliers like him. Interesting to think about it as trading social welfare for the chance at more successful moonshots. If you believe in always-increasing returns on technological progress, it probably sounds like a fair trade...

While it’s an easy concept, if you look at billionaires per capita, Norway and Sweden edge out the us. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of...

A significant share of the wealthiest individuals in Sweden are from the nobility.