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Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

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Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#131

Post by smartasspolice »

an_opabinia wrote: post #110
ludocode wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course everyone wants the government to do something about climate change. They're not thinking about what they'll have to sacrifice in order to make it happen. Almost no one is willing to suffer even minor inconvenience in favor of stopping climate change. Let's see the results of a poll that asks if people would be willing to take climate action that doubled the price of airline tickets, or that doubled the pric…

> If a majority of the world agreed on labor standards and excluded the rest from trade, there would be no need for protectionism The average American does not want to buy stuff from slaves, at any price. It's just that if I want to record a factory in China and show people how kids and prisoners are making their shit, it's not that they won't watch - it's that someone in China will shoot me. It's very hard to show s…

> The average American does not want to buy stuff from slaves, at any price.

This is a pretty bold claim considering the American history.

> There are a lot of vegans.

No there isn't. Only a small fraction of people are vegans. So I'd say that according to your example, most people in world are meat eaters despite the sufferings of animals.

China is winning at manufacturing not because of slavery. The Chinese infrastructure is advancing much faster than that of the US. I'm sorry but Your fringe view is clearly out of touch with the rest of the world.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#132

Post by cbHXBY1D »

lucian1900 wrote: post #103
Dylan16807 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US is the one with widely documented concentration camps on the border. That's for people crossing in, and on average they're only in there for a couple days. The current population is around 10k people. It's a problem but it's absolutely nothing compared to putting entire groups into concentration camps. We did that once, but it sure wasn't any time recently. > And last year showed us just how much due process…

Entire groups aren’t in concentration camps in Xinjiang, though. The only source is Adrian Zenz, a far right Christian that doesn’t even speak Mandarin. If you’re willing to read on the topic https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang . The US is the outlier. US forces murder and imprison innocent people all the time, both domestically (poor and black people in general, Chelsea Manning) and abroad (Assange,…

You're correct about Zenz. Not only is Zenz a far right Evangelical but he also has made statements that he is "guided by God" and on a "mission" against China. His work is full of cherry-picking and distorting source material and sometimes creating his own shoddy data. For example, he only interviewed 8 people to come up with the 1 million in internment camp figure.

A good read: https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-media-reports-chinese-...

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#133

Post by ludocode »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #102
ludocode wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course everyone wants the government to do something about climate change. They're not thinking about what they'll have to sacrifice in order to make it happen. Almost no one is willing to suffer even minor inconvenience in favor of stopping climate change. Let's see the results of a poll that asks if people would be willing to take climate action that doubled the price of airline tickets, or that doubled the pric…

> Almost no one is willing to suffer even minor inconvenience in favor of stopping climate change. People aren't taking minor, inconvenient, personal, moral steps to solve these problems because it's obvious that won't do anything to solve the problem. It's irrelevant whether or not I shut the water off when I brush my teeth when the farm over in the desert is subsidized to run a center-pivot irrigation in system in…

I wasn't suggesting we solve this problem through individual action. I'm not sure how you got that impression from my post. For what it's worth I agree with you: the focus on individual responsibility and personal guilt over climate change is the great distraction that has allowed corporations to continue polluting unabated.

The problem, and the point of my post, was that collective action can only be done by legislation, and in a democracy politicians are beholden to the electorate. Most people don't want to suffer higher prices for goods and services, so most people won't vote for any politicians that support policies that will have real impact on climate change.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#134

Post by ludocode »

an_opabinia wrote: post #110
ludocode wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course everyone wants the government to do something about climate change. They're not thinking about what they'll have to sacrifice in order to make it happen. Almost no one is willing to suffer even minor inconvenience in favor of stopping climate change. Let's see the results of a poll that asks if people would be willing to take climate action that doubled the price of airline tickets, or that doubled the pric…

> If a majority of the world agreed on labor standards and excluded the rest from trade, there would be no need for protectionism The average American does not want to buy stuff from slaves, at any price. It's just that if I want to record a factory in China and show people how kids and prisoners are making their shit, it's not that they won't watch - it's that someone in China will shoot me. It's very hard to show s…

> Just decide: would you pay a higher price to not get stuff from slaves, or not? Just you personally. I don't care what Americans think. How could you possibly say, "Yes, I'm okay with lower prices enabled by slavery." You wouldn't!

Since you asked: For me personally, it depends. I bought a lab grown diamond for my wife's engagement ring some years back (before they were generally socially acceptable) since we weren't comfortable with diamond mining. I buy free-run eggs even though they're more expensive. We have a community-supported agriculture subscription and we buy Ontario apples when Costco stocks them.

But like the vast majority of westerners, I buy cheap shoes, despite not knowing where they are manufactured, and despite knowing that almost all shoes are made by questionable labor. I even eat chocolate even though it's virtually impossible to get chocolate that doesn't come from child slave labor. I eat all typical meats despite seeing videos of slaughterhouses, of baby chicks being shredded, etc.

Does this answer your question? I think it proves my point: I consider myself knowledgeable on this stuff and it barely affects my purchasing behavior. No one cares. No matter how many videos of slaughterhouses and labor camps you try to shove in my face, I will still eat steak and buy shoes. People want meat, people want gas, people want cheap goods, and people want to ignore all negative externalities. Information is more accessible than ever, and yet like the sibling comment says, there are not a lot of vegans.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#135

Post by an_opabinia »

ludocode wrote: post #134
an_opabinia wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a majority of the world agreed on labor standards and excluded the rest from trade, there would be no need for protectionism The average American does not want to buy stuff from slaves, at any price. It's just that if I want to record a factory in China and show people how kids and prisoners are making their shit, it's not that they won't watch - it's that someone in China will shoot me. It's very hard to show s…

> Just decide: would you pay a higher price to not get stuff from slaves, or not? Just you personally. I don't care what Americans think. How could you possibly say, "Yes, I'm okay with lower prices enabled by slavery." You wouldn't! Since you asked: For me personally, it depends. I bought a lab grown diamond for my wife's engagement ring some years back (before they were generally socially acceptable) since we weren…

> Since you asked: For me personally, it depends [if I would buy stuff made by slaves]

The absolute state of Hacker News.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#136

Post by stjohnswarts »

nybble41 wrote: post #89
yumraj wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also after the Snowden revelations, I laugh at the idea that American made products are somehow more “secure”. Be that may, but as a US person I’d rather have US intelligence snooping on me than a foreign hostile entity. There are no ifs and buts about it. For folks in other countries, I leave it to them if they are more comfortable with a democracy, with relatively good relations with most countries in the world,…

The error here is the assumption that only foreign entities are hostile. A "foreign hostile entity" may have lots of information and malicious intent, but they lack legal jurisdiction and the ability to take open, direct action where I live. The most worrisome threat is that they manage to uncover a common interest with some domestic entity and share what they learned—and from that perspective domestic snooping just…

Is it your hobby/part time job to defend China and dump on the USA? Just curious, looking back through your comment history and all.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#137

Post by seba_dos1 »

rjsw wrote: post #31
Scene_Cast2 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This multiplier (800x2.5) seems much lower than I'd expect. For prototype quantities (<100), I have consistently seen a multiplier of 8 or so, for the exact same spec (and verified within-spec after receiving the parts).

Your multiplier looks about right if you compare the Librem USA Phone with a PinePhone. The $800 price point is already inflated so that it can be made in the US.

Now compare the cost of individual parts between a PinePhone and a Librem 5.

These devices are nowhere near similar.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#138

Post by zwaps »

bserge wrote: post #84
jolux wrote: post #4

I applaud this accomplishment. I think there will be a push to manufacture more semiconductor-intensive products in the US over the next several years as tensions with China continue to heat up and Taiwan is left as a single point of failure. I know progress is already being made with TSMC building new fabs in the US. I will note that Purism do not say what their production capacity is, and that it would probably be…

I can only hope we in the EU can buy from the US without some ridiculous extra fees. In the past 10 years, it became cheaper to buy the same products from China than the US, which is in part due to US shipping companies (DHL, UPS, FedEx) dramatically scaling down their overseas shipping business. I could get a 5KG box of electronics in a week for $50 ten years ago. Nowadays, there's only USPS, it takes two weeks and…

DHL is German (now).

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#139

Post by ludocode »

an_opabinia wrote: post #135
ludocode wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just decide: would you pay a higher price to not get stuff from slaves, or not? Just you personally. I don't care what Americans think. How could you possibly say, "Yes, I'm okay with lower prices enabled by slavery." You wouldn't! Since you asked: For me personally, it depends. I bought a lab grown diamond for my wife's engagement ring some years back (before they were generally socially acceptable) since we weren…

> Since you asked: For me personally, it depends [if I would buy stuff made by slaves] The absolute state of Hacker News.

I have kids that need shoes and limited funds. I have to give them a standard of living comparable to their peers. Of course I don't want to buy products made with questionable labor. No one does. But I don't feel like I have a choice.

Can you honestly say you don't buy anything made with questionable labor? Can anyone? Do you know that America has a slave labor force of millions of prisoners? Slavery never really went away in the US; you can't avoid it even if you buy American. For example if you own a car, odds are your license plate was manufactured by American slaves.

For what its worth, we bought my daughter a very nice pair of boots made in Quebec. But it's the only pair she owns that I know are manufactured domestically. They also proudly employ special needs workers, which sounds great except I have my suspicions that it's just a ploy to pay them less. It is absolutely impossible to avoid labor inequality in the modern world.

Re: Manufacturing the Librem 5 USA Phone in the US

#140

Post by fsflover »

emacsen wrote: post #128
fsflover wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you are disappointed exactly. Because of the size? It's the only phone with usable kill switches, running fully free software, recommended by the FSF, with good working convergence mode and so on.

> Because of the size? It's huge and because of that, it's not in the same category as a normal phone. If it had been sold as that, that would be one thing, but it wasn't. I bought an MNT Reform laptop knowing it won't look like a normal laptop- that's fine. But if they had shown something that looked like a Dell XPS 13 and then shipped something that looks like the MNT Reform does, I'd be just as upset. > usable kil…

> I believe the Pinephone also has software kill switches which function much the same way.

Pinephone has hardware kill switches which are not usable/convenient. You have to open the back cover to access them and they are very tiny. You won't be able to switch the microphone on when you receive a call, unlike with Librem 5.

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