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Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

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Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#131
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the same reason that if some kind of Cordyceps-like brain-parasite were to infect a person and make them murder people, that wouldn't be that person's fault. Especially if the brain parasite could be removed, reverting their personality to normal. I wouldn't hold that against the person going forward (unless they for some reason actively pursued further brain-parasite infections as a general preference.) Companie…

I don't know where the talk about evil individuals came from - Uber's billing is not the result of a single "potentially evil" individual. Instead it is the result of the company culture and processes. This incident was not an intentional decision to charge drivers to work, but still a predictable outcome of the way they operate, and thus indistinguishable from actual malice from the perspective of the customer, both…

> I don't know where the talk about evil individuals came from - Uber's billing is not the result of a single "potentially evil" individual.

It's what would be true for the situation outlined in the root comment of this subthread to pertain: that it was "an intentional product decision."

For that to be true, there would need to be an individual that made that decision, with the thought-process I outlined in my first comment. Such a thought-process wouldn't just be sociopathic (zero-sum), it'd be negative-sum/"evil". It would be a choice to hurt both drivers, and the corporation itself (when people inevitably find out), and oneself (when blame is inevitably pointed at them.) For what? Who knows. Evil. (Industrial sabotage, maybe.)

Obviously, like another commenter said, this wasn't an intentional product decision. (It was maybe an intentional project management decision, but one made in by no one individual.)

But that same commenter rhetorically asked why it mattered whether it was an intentional product decision or not. That's why I explained the difference. Acts of evil individuals that have parasitized good companies shouldn't reflect on those companies (once the evil individual is removed.) Acts of structural evil — acts that are generated from an algorithm the corporation is following as a whole, and would still follow if you replaced every employee ship-of-Theseus style — should reflect on the company itself.

This, of course, is an example of the latter kind of act, one that should reflect on the company itself.

But it's important to distinguish these acts from acts that are, in fact, committed by bad actors that have "infiltrated" the company. For the same reason that we distinguish "terrorism" from "domestic terrorism." The latter — domestic terrorism — can, in some ways, be "a reflection of the culture of the country." When there's a school shooting, we can ask what the country is doing wrong that leads to people like this cropping up. But the former — plain old terrorism — is not, and cannot, reflect on the country. The person who committed the act wasn't even an enculturated citizen of the country, so what would it tell us about the country?

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#132
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it terrifying? It's accurate. A bug plus shitty automated support with no human in the loop is an intentional product decision. They could have humans in the loop. They could have human support. They could make bugs like this more easily remediable. But they don't. On purpose. To the extent that their "fare review process" and the app failed. Now it's going to be fixed by some PR person. Because it's still che…

I'm pretty sure that at no point did anyone sit down and say "let's charge drivers for trips". It's clearly the unintended consequence of real product decisions, but it's equally clearly not a new strategic direction to bill the supply side of the market. It's terrifying because it illustrates the lack of trust that the general public has in tech. Instead of "looks like someone's having a bad day at the Uber office,…

No, but they did say, "let's take a fixed fraction of total charges" rather then "let's take a fixed fraction of the amount after paying third parties", not realizing the former could be more than the driver's share.

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#133
post #80

Uber's handling of edge cases is...something. My wife is banned for life from Uber because after she was overcharged by a driver by $80 (for a five minute ride), and after Uber denied her dispute of the fraudulent charge, she flagged the fraudulent charge with the credit card company and got refunded via that route. I don't think a human was in the loop for any step of this process on Uber's end.

When will people realize Uber is a bad and evil company. From the get go, with waht they did to others in the sector, how they treat drivers and clients... I really can't believe anybody is still using them...

It’s not about good and evil, the problem is the mismatch of power between merchants and customers. This is a matter of policy and if it can be taken advantage of, it will. Stop it with the “bad evil company dark patterns” junk. Incentives matter.

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you say more? The risk of account locks seems very similar on any of the major cloud providers? A brief search shows similar complaints on AWS, for example.

Indeed. AWS has kicked customers off too. Never said they didn’t. I’ve heard more stories from people getting booted from GCP than AWS. By order of 10x it seems like. I’m sure someone’s been kicked off Azure too. Hybrid cloud with some on-prem backup solution is the only way to truly be cloud agnostic and protect yourself and your data from deletion due to a variety of issues. GCP kicked off a game developer (and del…

That's fair. In my news feed, this is mostly an issue for independent developers than companies (all providers). We are a startup (year and change old) and we have human contacts in GCP. And not because we have personal connections in GCP teams. GCP reached out to us, we have had a few calls and so on, like any normal vendor. Our experience has been totally contrary to what I hear from independent developers.

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#135
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When will people realize Uber is a bad and evil company. From the get go, with waht they did to others in the sector, how they treat drivers and clients... I really can't believe anybody is still using them...

But they were cheaper! ... while illegally operating at a loss without a permit to drive the competition out of the space.

TBH, I think the understated selling feature for Uber/Lyft was that they'd show you a price in advance of actually summoning the car.

No reason a taxi service couldn't offer the same experience, but you see a lot of scenarios where that's not an option.

Before Covid, I'd go to the head office in the suburbs of Chicago twice a year. The first few times, I took a taxi from the stand and watched powerlessly as the meter ticked up and up, not knowing when it would stop. With Lyft, I could at least see if it would be $25 or 65 before I agreed to summon the vehicle.

In other news, I wish Metra would go straight to and from O'hare.

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. AWS has kicked customers off too. Never said they didn’t. I’ve heard more stories from people getting booted from GCP than AWS. By order of 10x it seems like. I’m sure someone’s been kicked off Azure too. Hybrid cloud with some on-prem backup solution is the only way to truly be cloud agnostic and protect yourself and your data from deletion due to a variety of issues. GCP kicked off a game developer (and del…

That's fair. In my news feed, this is mostly an issue for independent developers than companies (all providers). We are a startup (year and change old) and we have human contacts in GCP. And not because we have personal connections in GCP teams. GCP reached out to us, we have had a few calls and so on, like any normal vendor. Our experience has been totally contrary to what I hear from independent developers.

If you can get a signed enterprise agreement it's not as bad. I would do the same if I was on AWS (in fact, we did at the company I worked for) or Azure. My news feeds have a horror story every few months from someone getting locked out/banned/deleted from GCP though.

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#137
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she was overcharged by a driver Drivers don't charge riders - Uber does.

When she got out of the Uber, the driver continued driving for a long time before "ending" the ride, and the tab ran the entire time which racked up extra charges.

I've only been a passenger while someone else has ordered (?) an Uber, but my understanding is you say "take me to X location" in the app and then the ride completes when the GPS coordinates of the car roughly match that of the endpoint. Even if doing a multi-part trip (e.g. to drop off multiple people in different places) this is negotiated beforehand and accounted for.

How did this "attack" work, did the driver override the destination somehow?

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Situations and destinations change. There is nothing "scummy" about changing where you're going on a trip you're paying for. Any guarantees to the driver are an issue for the company to deal with.

Why did you chose to direct attention to the one set of circumstances that the comment you're responding to deliberately and visibly contains a hedge for? Arguing against the comment on the unintentional side of the issue doesn't even make glancing contact with the subject that's actually in focus. If intentional , lying about the ultimate destination and then changing it after pickup is a scummy thing to do.

[deleted]

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that's a contract Uber is making with the driver, and they should absolutely cover the difference No one here is arguing otherwise. > If they find themselves losing money on that, then they can and will update the guarantee message What is your conception of "update" here? Someone receives an offer for a given payout. The driver accepts and goes to pick up the passenger. The passenger gets into the car and then cha…

> No one here is arguing otherwise. I thought you were, actually: > someone would be getting screwed there (e.g. Uber, if they were forced to cover the difference to the driver). This is a little meta, but it seems weird to describe company C getting screwed if they are "forced" to cover their contracts, even while agreeing that they ought to cover their contracts. > What is your conception of "update" here? No time…

> it seems weird to describe

It's not weird to take issue with mendaciousness and pass moral judgment on it. Most of the responses here take the form of an argument that says, essentially, that if something is possible and/or not illegal, then it's okay, which fundamentally recasts the context of the conversation to give that perspective a kind of leverage that it doesn't have in the original, moral context.

This is all moot regarding the specific case, of course, given the reply of the original commenter, who clarified that it was not intentional (and who agrees that it would be scummy if it were intentional). But I find it disturbing the number of people here who were willing to jump in and argue for the "nyah, nyah, I'm not touching you" take, as if that were a serious argument, i.e. in the event that it were taking place in the context they desire.

But on the topic of litigating the point both figuratively and literally, legislatures and courts, not to mention private businesses, do have the power to say, essentially, "We see what you're doing. Knock that shit off." E.g., a law that addresses unfair practices by laying out that something can be a cause for action not only if a person makes an untrue statement of material fact, but also if they fail to state "a material fact necessary to make other statements made not misleading". The responses here are pretty devoid of any kind of indicator of an awareness of this, and instead come off as My First Attempt to Exploit a Legal Loophole.

> No time travel required; "update" meant

Thanks for clearing this up.

> If riders change destinations in such a way enough, Uber can start lowering guarantees or

... or charging those riders a fee that happens to correspond with the delta between the original and the new destination, or firing the rider.

Re: Uber charges driver for completing a 13-mile fare

#140
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they were cheaper! ... while illegally operating at a loss without a permit to drive the competition out of the space.

TBH, I think the understated selling feature for Uber/Lyft was that they'd show you a price in advance of actually summoning the car. No reason a taxi service couldn't offer the same experience, but you see a lot of scenarios where that's not an option. Before Covid, I'd go to the head office in the suburbs of Chicago twice a year. The first few times, I took a taxi from the stand and watched powerlessly as the meter…

The difference is that taxi services usually had one single rate no matter the time or day (at least where I'm at).
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