Please commit more blatant academic fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#131

Post by unishark » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:02 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #98

3grdlurker wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protected, or just less noticed.

It's more the fact that academia is granted a greater degree of leniency because it is fundamentally something that is societally required for innovations to take place. Genuine ingenuity requires room to flourish, so in the West at least, the theory is you leave tge Boffins alone to do their wizardry. The part I don't understand is how extorting the students to fund bloated Administrative processes, sport teams, sta…

The faculty have very little say in most of those aspects of universities you're complaining about.

The media is just a crazy sideshow that cherry picks a tiny subset of stories to run or people to destroy when it fits the right narratives. When it comes to real scrutiny, I'd say faculty are under vastly more than people in industry. Though yes, google as an entire entity will analyzed more than some random professor. But the rank-and-file professor is also probably in far more constant danger of being ruined than almost any individual in a comparable role in industry. Also more than most businesses that no one cares about.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#132

Post by Al-Khwarizmi » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:07 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #123

The level of academic unhappiness with publishing and its surrounds is actually surprising to me. First, I never hear the counterargument.. that current publishing is OK. Does it exist, or is everyone unhappy while nothing changes? Second, I'm surprised at how much of a single institution academia seems to be. "Publish or Perish," for example, has to be supported by tenure committees, grant makers and such. Are they…

Well, this trend is more or less everywhere but it's not uniform, some countries have much more extreme "publish or perish" cultures than others.

For example, in Spain practically everything related to the academic career (promotions, salary decisions, tenure, etc.) is measured by pure bean counting. Actual quality doesn't matter at all, it's all about having X papers in Y journal quartile during Z period. Evaluations are conducted by scientists but they might as well be clerks, because there is usually a grading scale on everything saying "each paper in this quartile gives X points" so the weight of the actual opinions of the evaluators is zero or close to zero (even if they read one of those papers and it's total bullshit, the regulations still say that they have to give it X points). As a result, the kind of subtle fraud described in the post is widespread, with most people gaming metrics and trying to publish in the crappiest possible journals that happen to have a high impact factor.

In contrast, for example in France things seem to be more relaxed. I don't know the exact details as I'm not from there, but I have many colleagues from there and I do know that they can actually spend years thinking about very difficult problems, and then publishing a really good paper (even if it's in a journal or conference without such good metrics) and their career seems to be more or less fine. As a result, research coming from France in my field tends to generally be really high quality (IMHO) even though in Spain those people's CVs would be considered bad due to not optimizing metrics.

The US seems to be somewhere in between, China looks similar to Spain, Northern European countries seem to be somewhere between the US and France in the spectrum, and so on.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#133

Post by re-al » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

The lies in science and academia are out of control. Whether its this example, the replication crisis, the funding crisis - the upshot is that we cannot be confident about the 'reality' that is being presented to us.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#134

Post by fullshark » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

tlb wrote: post #59

The idea that a field can be reformed by making it worse until it suddenly faces a reckoning and emerges much better is ... I don't know where people keep getting the idea that this might work. It has never worked in any field ever in history. The thing that can happen: fields gradually split into rigorous and non-rigorous camps. Like with evidence-based medicine, or chemistry/alchemy. Depending on the field, either…

This struck me mostly as tongue in cheek, and the the author's main point is the blatant fraud is just the tip of the iceberg, the subtle fraud is happening under the surface and affecting almost every field.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#135

Post by h2odragon » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #126

newswasboring wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep bringing out that this can be a joke, but he said this two days later "I did mean the part about having trouble with girls. It is true that I have fallen in love with people in the lab, and that people in the lab have fallen in love with me, and it's very disruptive to the science. It's terribly important that, in the lab, people are on a level playing field. And I found these emotional entanglements made…

So what part of falling in love with people in the lab, people in the lab falling in love with you, and that affecting concentration and productivity, is so evil as to get someone fired? Sorry, honest question. Being from a different culture, I honestly fail to get this kind of outrage. For me it's just a description of humans being human...

> a description of humans being human...

Precisely. There's some sort of "if you have authority you must be better than me" feeling and "better than me" admits no flaws or human variety at all, apparently. Some folks want perfect Gods to follow and keep failing to make them from people made of meat.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#136

Post by selimthegrim » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

cryptica wrote: post #97

One big problem in our society is that there is a Darwinian selection process occurring which selects for psychopathy. It's only going to get worse. Psycopaths are attracted to power and are willing to do anything for it so they are more likely to get it. Power comes with money. Money allow psychopaths to have more children. The children are more likely to be psychopaths too so they will also end up in positions of p…

You need to lay off the Peter Watts.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#137

Post by TrackerFF » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

berndi wrote: post #28

berndi wrote: post #11

Wow, the amount of depravity in some academic circles is astonishing. The article links [1] the case of a PhD student at the University of Florida who was forced to participate in such a publication collusion ring and was pressured to commit scientific fraud by fabricating results and submitting them to a conference [2], being threatened with physical harm should he decide to go public. This student saw no way out an…

How is it possible that professors with impeccable academic credentials get fired for jokes nearly instantly [1], yet this student's professor was allowed to carry on until he resigned two years later [2]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_shaming#Tim_Hunt_contro... [2] https://eu.gainesville.com/story/news/education/campus/2021/...

Much easier to prove the case of terrible jokes or non-PC behavior. Twitter has streamlined that stuff for years now - and what's more, that kind of behavior is much more relevant for more people, rather than academic fraud which might be a very niche thing, only relevant to small circles of people.

One could ask - why is it that petty theft can land some people behind bars for years, while wealthy people committing tax fraud only get fined, or at most a couple of months in a cushy white-collar crime facility? Well - for one, the former crime is much easier to prove, especially if you're caught red-handed. The latter crime tends to be incredibly complex, and will cost a ton of resources to prosecute.

I guess the same goes for your questions. Professors incriminating themselves on twitter or youtube - easy as pie.

Collusion rings with respectable professors, that probably use students for dirty work and plausible deniability, and resources enough to fight their employer in the courts: hard fight

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#138

Post by gjulianm » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

berndi wrote: post #28

berndi wrote: post #11

Wow, the amount of depravity in some academic circles is astonishing. The article links [1] the case of a PhD student at the University of Florida who was forced to participate in such a publication collusion ring and was pressured to commit scientific fraud by fabricating results and submitting them to a conference [2], being threatened with physical harm should he decide to go public. This student saw no way out an…

How is it possible that professors with impeccable academic credentials get fired for jokes nearly instantly [1], yet this student's professor was allowed to carry on until he resigned two years later [2]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_shaming#Tim_Hunt_contro... [2] https://eu.gainesville.com/story/news/education/campus/2021/...

For one, you're cherry-picking two examples. Some professors don't get fired for jokes nearly instantly and others get immediately fired for abusing their students.

Second, amplification plays a part. A story with "two sides" (such as the joke one) will draw far more public attention than another with only one side, just because there will be more debate and people using it to advance their agendas. In this case, it includes "PC Twitter" but also all of the people who scream "freedom of speech" whenever someone is criticized for saying something dumb or inappropriate.

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#139

Post by underseacables » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

I graduated in 2014, and was astonished at how much cheating there was in university. From thefts and bribery, to groups sitting in the back of the class whispering in another language, integrity at the university level has plummeted. When students openly cheat and advance, it’s no wonder that behavior becomes permissible among faculty

Re: Please commit more blatant academic fraud

#140

Post by underseacables » Sun, May 30, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

berndi wrote: post #28

berndi wrote: post #11

Wow, the amount of depravity in some academic circles is astonishing. The article links [1] the case of a PhD student at the University of Florida who was forced to participate in such a publication collusion ring and was pressured to commit scientific fraud by fabricating results and submitting them to a conference [2], being threatened with physical harm should he decide to go public. This student saw no way out an…

How is it possible that professors with impeccable academic credentials get fired for jokes nearly instantly [1], yet this student's professor was allowed to carry on until he resigned two years later [2]? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_shaming#Tim_Hunt_contro... [2] https://eu.gainesville.com/story/news/education/campus/2021/...

The tenure system. It protects more bad professors than it retains good ones.