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Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

bloomberg.com

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Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#131

Post by killerpopiller »

orev wrote: post #86
hawski wrote: post #6

I really like Thom Holwerda's from OSnews take on the article. Especially the "glorified toaster makers" part. https://www.osnews.com/story/133436/microsoft-and-apple-wage... > What’s good enough for the car industry, is more than good enough for these glorified toaster makers. Cars are basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on, but Apple and Microsoft make complicated toasters that…

> must be forced to make parts and schematics available to any independent repair shop, just like car makers have to do The only reason this has been possible for car makers until now is because the technology to stop it didn’t exist. But it does now, and car makers are definitely moving in the direction of “lock down”. You already can’t replace wireless key fobs, and entertainment head units are locked down. Repair…

not necessarily. At least in Germany competition law broke up the restrictions regarding repairing only in brand repair shop’s. Free repair shop’s have accessed now to the manuals/instructions (at costs though).

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#132

Post by rgrs »

_the_inflator wrote: post #125
hawski wrote: post #6

I really like Thom Holwerda's from OSnews take on the article. Especially the "glorified toaster makers" part. https://www.osnews.com/story/133436/microsoft-and-apple-wage... > What’s good enough for the car industry, is more than good enough for these glorified toaster makers. Cars are basically murder weapons we kind of screwed ourselves into being reliant on, but Apple and Microsoft make complicated toasters that…

I disagree. I think this argument will backfire in a couple of years from now. A car does not feature my personal data - up to now. A harddisk with your account information and so on is not the same as an engine. Car makers become more and more data aware and ironically there is no engine in the traditional sense in e-cars anymore.

Encrypt. This is a silly reason. Why not make devices with removable disks? They could be removed and sent for repair. Not everything have to be soldered.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#133

Post by teruakohatu »

jve wrote: post #129
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash doesn't fail due to mechanical stress, it fails due to wear cycles which are limited in every case. In every PC or laptop I can replace the flash storge except in the newer devices of the famous fruity manufacturer. And RAM may be reliable but when it's replaceable it means I can upgrade it and use the device for longer instead of having to buy a new device.

Bring your device to BGA reworker and he can change the chips on board. I really don't like the idea that manufacturers MUST provide easily replaceable parts. That will affect product weight and dimensions. Anyways, repair shops are dealing with chips all the time, so I see no problem of chips being changed, swapped and, if manufacturer provides list of supported RAM chips - those can be changed too.

> That will affect product weight and dimensions.

So do emissions standards, and they also effect performance. But as a society we realise we are better off with them than without.

Forcing a repairable device reduces waste and is, in my opinion, better for the vast majority of consumers.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#134

Post by ekianjo »

ksec wrote: post #97
hellbannedguy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Computer and device makers must be forced to make parts and schematics available to any independent repair shop, just like car makers have to do." I believe it's only Massachusetts that forces Car makers to share repair information to independant shops? (We need a broad federal Right to Repair law.) I'm an Independent Watchmaker and 99.99% of watch companies stopped selling parts to us a few years ago. Rolex was qui…

>Consumers just want a choice to bring their broken vechicle/device to a guy who charges a reasonable amount to repair. This. I will be happy even if Apple ( and specifically Apple ) will do this themselves instead of charging parts that earn their exact same margin as if you were buying a new computer. Everything is wrong with the logic board, which cost you $400+. Apple speakers are ( comparatively speaking ) easil…

Easy fix is not to buy Apple anymore.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#136

Post by ekianjo »

It's funny that the right-to-repair is supposedly gaining momentum while at the same time consumers have had no problem buying new devices that are less and less open to be repaired, despite having the choice of phones with replaceable batteries for example

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#137

Post by lrem »

rgrs wrote: post #132
_the_inflator wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. I think this argument will backfire in a couple of years from now. A car does not feature my personal data - up to now. A harddisk with your account information and so on is not the same as an engine. Car makers become more and more data aware and ironically there is no engine in the traditional sense in e-cars anymore.

Encrypt. This is a silly reason. Why not make devices with removable disks? They could be removed and sent for repair. Not everything have to be soldered.

But a slot is 0.5mm overhead over just soldering a bare part!

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#138

Post by simonh »

nrp wrote: post #34
least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

>This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t...

Except a rating like that doesn't actually indicate expected average device lifetime at all. It's common knowledge Apple devices are low on repairability, yet they have average device working lifetimes and post-sale vendor support periods much longer than the very best you'll find among their competitors.

You can also see this from the way they retain their second hand value for years longer than competing devices with much higher repairability scores. People buying these devices second hand know perfectly well they have practical longer working lifetimes than their competition, and they're willing to pay for that.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#139

Post by socialdemocrat »

least wrote: post #23

My main complaint against right-to-repair laws is mostly to the extent that some people push for. I am not against manufacturers being forced to provide things like schematics or parts to third party repair shops. I don't think that companies like Apple should be able to decide who is allowed to or not allowed to access parts to repair their devices. I also don't think that Apple should place DRM on its parts to chec…

There are sensible solutions to this. You don’t need to hold a gun to the head of the manufacturer. However we should encourage repair ability. This could be through labeling, taxing or subsidies.

Just leaving everything to the market isn’t tenable. Markets have all sorts of flaws. It is one of the reasons why we have so many environmental problems. In this case it is appropriate for governments to devise regulations to remedy obvious problems.

Re: Microsoft and Apple wage war on gadget right-to-repair laws

#140

Post by socialdemocrat »

gerash wrote: post #57
nrp wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The repairability index that France rolled out this year is great in that regard. Sellers of certain types of devices including smartphones and laptops are required to post a repairability score for the product prominently next to the price tag. This highlights to consumers which products are designed to be usable for longer through repair and upgrade and which aren’t, even if they otherwise look and function similar…

I haven't seen the repairability index yet it sounds very arbitrary and prone to be gamed. There is no need to micro manage how a device manufacturer designs their products as long as they offset the pollution they create by either paying the local governments to dig more landfills or recycle their own products or send it over to someone who can recycle. There are still open problems on how to measure the pollution b…

Recycling it’s much worse for the environment than simply reusing or repairing an existing product.

Markets are not perfect, so why does regulations need to be perfect? They just need to be better than the alternative.

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