Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English • Hacker News Board

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#131

Post by Bayart » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

biztos wrote: post #89

heurisko wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And there are dialects that are pretty much incomprehensible to people who grew up in the mainstream dialect (true of many other languages as well) I think there are differences in accent, but I don't recognise anywhere as being "pretty much incomprehensible". I speak "standard" German as a foreigner, and have definitely found dialects that are "pretty much incomprehensible". I haven't found differences to such a d…

If you mean in English, I would say look to the poorer corners of blighty, or deep enough into Australia, and you may find what you need. Or, if you're in Los Angeles and white, ride the bus from Santa Monica to DTLA on any given weekend and just listen to people talk: that's English just as sure as mine is, but I get maybe half. (Also, is Scots not a dialect of English? I'm not sure -- a mix at the very least. Great…

>Also, is Scots not a dialect of English? I'm not sure -- a mix at the very least.

Scots and English are two dialects of the same language.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#132

Post by not2b » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #26

As a non-native speaker, one fascinating phenomenon for me is the flip side to Uncleftish Beholding[1]. Many latinate words are considered more sophisticated, or fancier in general, than germanic words. Because I'm a native speaker of a Romance language, those are precisely the words that I reach for naturally, because they're familiar. What follows is that, past a certain threshold where your English is good enough,…

I think some of this was because of the Norman conquest. For a few hundred years the nobility spoke Norman French and the peasants spoke old English. So our words for animals are Germanic and our words for meat come from French. Beef is boeuf, but that word is only for the meat. The refined words were from French and Latin. If there was another word it was lower class.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#133

Post by dukeofdoom » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

Isn't this selection bias? It's like walking in on a flight to US, and seeing how poorly sloppy everyone is dressed. So you might assume that the US is some sort of third world country. But you would be wrong, because the US is rich enough that even the lower class can travel. So if you are talking with some native speaker, you just might be speaking with an idiot, because even idiots speak English as their first language. Where as English speakers from other countries, might be well educated, since it's their second language.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#134

Post by me_me_me » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #113

biztos wrote: post #29

I'm a native English speaker who's lived in other countries a lot and speaks three languages, now trying to learn a fourth. The weirdness of "English" is something I think about often. For starters, you have to live in it before you can really speak it. And our spelling is the least rational, least consistent thing I've ever seen. In addition to the weird way we spell a lot of things, many of the sounds are not prono…

What languages do you speak? I speak Spanish and have been learning Polish for a few years because my wife's family immigrated from there, and many are still in Poland, with some only speaking Polish... can't have the in-laws talking trash without me knowing :) Spanish is generally straightforward and consistent, though the huge number of dialects can be a challenge for practical communication. Polish is a goddamn ni…

> Add to that the fact that my Polish teacher's explanation for many things is "there's no rule, you just have to learn what sounds right." In one case, if you have a masculine noun you must either add an a or a u on the end. There is no rule for which.

I can only sympathise with you, but that is the thing. As native speaker you just know when the words sounds good or off.

One good thing is that you can always read Polish words phonetically. The notation to sounds is always the same. So its something :)

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#135

Post by hervature » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

heurisko wrote: post #49

biztos wrote: post #29

I'm a native English speaker who's lived in other countries a lot and speaks three languages, now trying to learn a fourth. The weirdness of "English" is something I think about often. For starters, you have to live in it before you can really speak it. And our spelling is the least rational, least consistent thing I've ever seen. In addition to the weird way we spell a lot of things, many of the sounds are not prono…

> And there are dialects that are pretty much incomprehensible to people who grew up in the mainstream dialect (true of many other languages as well) I think there are differences in accent, but I don't recognise anywhere as being "pretty much incomprehensible". I speak "standard" German as a foreigner, and have definitely found dialects that are "pretty much incomprehensible". I haven't found differences to such a d…

Does Newfinese fit the bill? Particularly the older generation. Listen to the first 10 seconds of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvnDy7PXiTc

Part of the imcomprehensibility stems from their wide use of sayings that aren’t really deductible. “Who knit ya?” is “who are your parents?” It makes sense in retrospect, but I don’t think many people would think that in retrospect.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#136

Post by jakub_g » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #113

biztos wrote: post #29

I'm a native English speaker who's lived in other countries a lot and speaks three languages, now trying to learn a fourth. The weirdness of "English" is something I think about often. For starters, you have to live in it before you can really speak it. And our spelling is the least rational, least consistent thing I've ever seen. In addition to the weird way we spell a lot of things, many of the sounds are not prono…

What languages do you speak? I speak Spanish and have been learning Polish for a few years because my wife's family immigrated from there, and many are still in Poland, with some only speaking Polish... can't have the in-laws talking trash without me knowing :) Spanish is generally straightforward and consistent, though the huge number of dialects can be a challenge for practical communication. Polish is a goddamn ni…

There is a famous picture for that: https://9gag.com/gag/arOAPm6

Basically in Polish (and other Slavic languages) you take several concepts that are separate fixed words / grammar orders in English, and you meld them together with prefixes and postfixes to form a super-word that contains all information:

(I/you/he/she/it/we/you/they) x (future/now/past) x (surely/maybe) x (finished/unfished) x (statement/question) x ...

"she would have played" -> "zagrałaby"

"would you play?" (fem.) -> "zagrałabyś?"

"he would have played" -> "zagrałby"

"she has been playing" -> "grała"

"she played" -> "zagrała"

Indeed if you come from a simple language like English, it must be a mindfuck.

OTOH, regarding the past and whether something was happening regularly or not, there's some similar concept in Spanish that I never mastered. And all the "subjunctive" in French/Spanish... Languages are hard. Part of why English got so popular is that on grammar level it's really simpler than most other languages.

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#137

Post by manuelmoreale » Thu, May 20, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

anotherhue wrote: post #112

chris_j wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I (native English speaker) have noticed this a lot. The example that I remember most vividly is receiving advice while trying to cook food on a barbecue: A Portuguese speaking friend suggested that I "move the burgers to the periphery of the barbecue". It make perfect sense but sounded incredibly fancy to me. A native English speaker would never have said that... unless they had received a really expensive education.

An Italian friend of mine, when struggling to find the word for a Satellite Dish, called it a parabola. I was very impressed.

I find that particularly amusing because Parabola is exactly how we call satellite dishes here in Italy. It’s technically called Antenna Parabolica but plenty of people simply call it Parabola (at least here up north)

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#138

Post by TacticalCoder » Thu, May 20, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #26

As a non-native speaker, one fascinating phenomenon for me is the flip side to Uncleftish Beholding[1]. Many latinate words are considered more sophisticated, or fancier in general, than germanic words. Because I'm a native speaker of a Romance language, those are precisely the words that I reach for naturally, because they're familiar. What follows is that, past a certain threshold where your English is good enough,…

I hear you!

A long time ago I was in the US and I used the word "labyrinth" because I didn't know "maze" and, well, in french for a maze we say "labyrinthe"... I still remember the reaction of my american friend, very surprised by my "advanced" english vocabulary.

We native romance language speakers have it easy ; )

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#139

Post by phillc73 » Thu, May 20, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #15

Can I gripe about the spelling "nonnative" rather than "non-native"? It the former spelling it looks like it's said all at once, like the word "normative". Probably it's in common use and there are other similar cases we've assimilated, but I don't have to like it.

Lack of hyphen use drives me nuts. "Cooperation" is a prime example. Without the hyphen, my internal monologue pronounces the word like "chicken coop"[1]. Whereas, "Co-Operation" makes pronunciation much clearer.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_coop

Re: Nonnative English speakers share their gripes about speaking English

#140

Post by benrbray » Thu, May 20, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #123

routerl wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've had the same experience, but I've really had to resist that instinct, to avoid sounding too pompous. E.g. "ameliorate" comes more naturally to the tip of my tongue than "improve", but it's almost never a better word to use.

I emigrated to the US at age five from Germany and learned a lot of my English from Peanuts comics. One of the words I learned from that strip was "incidentally" which I used for years before someone told me about "by the way". I got beat up a lot too.

> I got beat up a lot too

As someone born in the 90s I'm always shocked to hear about how culturally accepted it was for children to be physically abused at school in my parents' generation. People talk about getting beaten up at school like it was nothing, like they deserved it for talking funny or liking comic books.

It's so normal that the children's shows I grew up with on Nickelodeon / Cartoon Network / etc all had the main characters getting beaten up at school as a regular plot point.

I just can't believe it. I'm so glad it is largely seen as unacceptable these days.